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Old Jul 27th, 2011, 08:02 PM   #136
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Re: Australian Open

[quote]
Quote:
A few more (we're getting there!)
I'd be lost without you GeeTee.

Yes, sometimes it fells like slow and steady. I just have bear in mind that the turtle finally DID cross the finish line.

A question about Freudenstein. Was her frist name Edith or Edna? I'm guessing Edna is wrong?


I also owe you a big debt for your name list. I've copied it and enlarged upon it, using your comments, other contributions and what I've discovered trolling around Trove. When I've formatted all the Aussie results through 2011 would it be ok if we compare notes?

What I would like to do is set some standards for names. For example, using "Dot" Moran or "Dorothy" Moran consistently rather than switching.

Once we have those standards in place when I set about editing results in the future I think we'll have an improved product.

I'm excited. So far I've edited up to 1960!

Last edited by Rollo : Jul 27th, 2011 at 08:13 PM.
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Old Jul 28th, 2011, 03:56 AM   #137
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Re: Australian Open

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I'd be lost without you GeeTee.
Never fear! I'm great at telling folks where to go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
A question about Freudenstein. Was her frist name Edith or Edna? I'm guessing Edna is wrong?
Yep Edith M FREUDENSTEIN (born 1903) (Mrs Albert I HAGUE from 1930)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I also owe you a big debt for your name list. I've copied it and enlarged upon it, using your comments, other contributions and what I've discovered trolling around Trove. When I've formatted all the Aussie results through 2011 would it be ok if we compare notes?
Sure! You show me yours and... lol.

The NLA's newspaper search is fantastic although it can still contain plenty of erroneous info. Many a time I've seen a name for a player (eg 'Annie') and thought it confirmed and later see that the more common usage is another name (eg 'Nellie') and have had to revise my lists or check further. Like us, the journalists of the day were only human and made errors themselves. Unfortunately as many original stories were syndicated to other Australian newspapers, you can see the mistake replicated across a range of sources and it can be a bit of trap. Often I've needed to do a heap of cross-referencing using Births, Deaths & Marriages data or visiting the National Library to check other resources that aren't online yet.

I think in the future, I might start another thread (later) about 'Aussie Players' (or similar) and include a short biography of each with additional trivia. I still have tons more name (and other details) in a variety of files that I should consolidate into a master (mistress?) file.

Although there is a thread for married names of players, there are some Aussies who didn't ever play overseas (sob!) or even in many AOs. So I think it might be a sensible idea to post Aussie data in its own thread. Some of this could then be included in the world thread for more significant players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
What I would like to do is set some standards for names. For example, using "Dot" Moran or "Dorothy" Moran consistently rather than switching.
Agree. For what it's worth, I'd suggest standards should include (or at least consider):

1)using ONLY the player's maiden name while they are playing as a single woman (eg Daphne Akhurst ONLY during all of her AO Singles tournaments). I find it strange to list 'Nell Hall' as 'Nell Hall Hopman' from her first tournament if she won't marry for another ten years.
2)using 'Daphne Akhurst-Cozens' for the first AO she plays as a married woman (eg 1931 AO doubles)
3)using the married name 'Daphne Cozens' thereafter
4)where a player first competes in the AO as a married woman it lists her as Beryl Turner (perhaps with a note like "Leila Howard Beryl Leslie 'Beryl' SPOWERS married Henry Macauley TURNER in 1915") for the first entry and just 'Beryl Turner' afterwards. Listing such a player as Beryl Spowers-Turner for her first entry might lead some to believe she has a hyphenated family name.
5)where a player only competes as a single woman, only her last appearance should denote the future married name (eg 'Joyce Fitch (Mrs John VAN RYMER from 1951')
6)with a preferred name maybe the first mention should say something like "Adela Gwyn 'Gwen' HACK" and any future results should just list 'Gwen Hack'

What u think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Once we have those standards in place when I set about editing results in the future I think we'll have an improved product.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I'm excited. So far I've edited up to 1960!
Cool. It can be fun discovering and adding in all these 'lost' jigsaw puzzle pieces can't it?

The AO official site is truly hopeless. I'm not sure it's a coincidence they finally have some historical data on the site as I wrote them a year or two back, complaining about the major errors in their historical summary and said it was embarrassing and looked like it had been written by a work experience student.

There are still hundreds of errors and I'm wondering where their research has come from (wikipedia?). Maybe I'll write them again enquiring about this. I'm sure they'll love to hear from me!
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Old Jul 28th, 2011, 04:20 AM   #138
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Re: Australian Open

I also wonder whether it might be an idea to list the states that the women played for? This can sometimes help differentiate between players of similar names (eg Muff Wilson NSW and Margaret Wilson VIC) although plenty of players did change their residence/state eligibility in their careers.

It woudn't help with the two Miss Stevensons/Mrs Waddells from Victoria though. Names like these would nearly always need to be spelled out in full:

Gwynneth 'Gwen' STEVENSON (Mrs Graham WADDELL after 1943) - died 15 January 1950
Dorothy 'Dot' STEVENSON (Mrs John Victor 'Jack' WADDELL from 1 Feb 1940)

Yes - the sisters married brothers.
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Old Jul 28th, 2011, 04:56 AM   #139
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Re: Australian Open

Couple more I just noticed:

"Gladys Patterson" (1922) is actually "Grace PATERSON", daughter of 'Banjo' Paterson who wrote Waltzing Matilda among other famous songs and poems.

Mrs Harold S 'Barney UTZ was formerly Gwen CHIPLIN.

F Cameron (20s) is Flora CAMERON.

and in addition to my other thoughts above:

7) Where the first name of a player is not known, she should be listed as 'S Smith' (if referenced in results as 'Miss S Smith') or MRS S Smith (if listed as married). I think this would help prevent confusion and help to track down other missing names.

Sorry to be so longwinded. Hope these help!
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Old Jul 28th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #140
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Re: Australian Open

Quote:
Couple more I just noticed:

"Gladys Patterson" (1922) is actually "Grace PATERSON", daughter of 'Banjo' Paterson who wrote Waltzing Matilda among other famous songs and poems.

Mrs Harold S 'Barney UTZ was formerly Gwen CHIPLIN.

F Cameron (20s) is Flora CAMERON.
Thanks-added. BTW-I've also seen Mr Utz mentioned as "Harry"


Quote:
7) Where the first name of a player is not known, she should be listed as 'S Smith' (if referenced in results as 'Miss S Smith') or MRS S Smith (if listed as married). I think this would help prevent confusion and help to track down other missing names.
Agreed.

Quote:
Sorry to be so longwinded. Hope these help!
As Chinese fortune cookie say-long wind carries one far
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Old Jul 28th, 2011, 01:17 PM   #141
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Re: Australian Open

Random questions and thoughts:

Are

WATERHOUSE, GWYNNETH - NSW player of 1920s

and

WATERHOUSE, GWEN (later Mrs Cassidy-1940 Aussie)

one and the same?


Could Syd Carr and Syd Hocking be one and the same?

and finally:


LASCELLES, Mrs Frank from 1922)=Annie Halley NSW Player of 1920s
LASCELLES, Nellie


What, if any, connection between these two. One and the same?



I'll reply at length to your other ideas tomorrow GeeTee. Thanks!
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Old Jul 31st, 2011, 11:23 PM   #142
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Re: Australian Open

Hey there.

a) Yep, Gwynneth ('Gwen') WATERHOUSE
b) I think Syd Hocking was a Miss, so probably not
c) Same. Ellen Annie ('Nellie') HALLEY born 1898
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Old Aug 7th, 2011, 03:28 PM   #143
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Re: Australian Open

Quote:
Hey there.

a) Yep, Gwynneth ('Gwen') WATERHOUSE
b) I think Syd Hocking was a Miss, so probably not
c) Same. Ellen Annie ('Nellie') HALLEY born 1898
Thanks GeeTee!

I'm chugging along towards formatting and editing all the Australian results. So far I'm up to 1973. When it is complete (in a few weeks I hope) we can get together about your ideas on a name list. It's a marvelous idea

If anyone has 2011, 2010 (the recent years) and can post them it would be much aprreciated.
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Old Aug 8th, 2011, 03:48 AM   #144
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Re: Australian Open

I've just added a bunch of Australians to the married names thread.
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Old Oct 24th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #145
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Re: Australian Open

Do we know the complete seedings for 1925, 1931, and 1932?
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Old Oct 24th, 2011, 03:06 PM   #146
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Re: Australian Open

^
1925
01 Sylvia Harper NSW
02 Daphne Akhurst NSW
03 Esna Boyd VIC
04 Kath Le Messurier SA
05 Marjorie Cox NSW
06 Minnie Richardson TAS

01 Harper/Akhurst
02 Boyd/Le Messurier
03 Cox/St George
04 Meaney/Mitchell

01 Willard/Akhurst
02 Schlesinger/Harper
03 Hone/Boyd
04 Baker/Le Messurier

Also - Le Messurier recovered from 1-4 down in the final set and earned a MP in her match against Meaney. On MP Meaney's shot, assisted by the wind, just caught the baseline.

1931

01 Marjorie Crawford
02 Sylvia Harper
03 Louie Bickerton
04 Coral Buttsworth

01 Crawford/Harper
02 Cozens/Bickerton
03 Dingle/Valkenburg
04 Molesworth/Westacott

01 Crawford/Crawford
02 Hopman/Hall
03 Moon/Harper
04 Willard/Bickerton

JUNIOR
01 Emily Westacott
02 Joan Hartigan
03 Lottie Crawford
04 Flo Francisco

01 Westacott/Moon
02 Hartigan/Bloomfield
03 Chitty/Anderson
04 Scott/Stevenson

1932

01 Esna Robertson
02 Marjorie Crawford
03 Coral Buttsworth
04 Frances Hoddle-Wrigley

01 Robertson/O'Hara Wood
02 Buttsworth/Crawford
03 Westacott/Hoddle-Wrigley
04 Le Messurier/Weston

01 Crawford/Crawford
02 Harada JPN/Robertson
03 Satoh JPN/O'Hara Wood
04 Donohue/Buttsworth

ETA Also a few other additions/corrections:

1933

01 Buttsworth
02 Hartigan
03 Westacott
04 Crawford
05 Molesworth
06 Lewis
07 Hoddle-Wrigley
08 Hall

01 Buttsworth/Crawford
02 Wood/Toyne
03 Hartigan/Van Ryn
04 Molesworth/Westacott
05 Harper/Bellamy
06 Hall/Hoddle-Wrigley
07 Anthony/Chitty
08 Woodward/Derham

Mixed
05 Turnbull/Weston
06 Tonkin/G Stevenson

NB - Some of the doubles seeds look like they might have been re-done before the tournament started as 01 shouldn't be playing 03 in a QF...

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Old Oct 24th, 2011, 04:34 PM   #147
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Re: Australian Open

Thanks. Were there seeds in 1922 and 1923?
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Old Oct 24th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #148
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Re: Australian Open

^ Prior to the 1924 championships, seeding was not permitted.

ALSO

Some of the 1937 seedings in this thread look to be incorrect.


01 Joan Hartigan NSW
02 Nancye Wynne VIC
03 Thelma Coyne NSW
04 Nell Hopman VIC
05 Emily Westacott QLD
06 Dot Stevenson VIC
07 Gwen O'Halloran SA
08 May Hardcastle QLD

01 Wynne/Coyne
02 Hopman/Westacott
03 Hartigan/Blick
04 Hattersley/Selwin

01 Hopman/Hopman
02 Turnbull/Stevenson
03 Moon/Wynne
04 Huxley/Hartigan

Source: SMH 12 January 1937

ALSO

Dr Nancy Lewis had an older sister, Amy (Mrs D Harrison from 1938) who was also an interstate tennis player.

Last edited by GeeTee : Oct 28th, 2011 at 04:34 AM.
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 08:41 PM   #149
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Re: Australian Open

Thanks Gee Tee-all fixed except for 1933, which I want to take a real close look at given the weird places the seeds fall!

I was relying on the official Aussie site for a lot of the seeding-clearly NOT a reliable source.
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Old Nov 2nd, 2011, 11:48 PM   #150
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Re: Australian Open

Rollo - since you're only going up to 1926 with the AO for your November project, here are a few details and notes for later Aussie titles. I'll save the other ones for those threads.

1927
Nell WEBB VIC
Spencer F MILLEAR VIC
Rupert L SHEPHERD SA
Harold N WILSON QLD
Thomas E ROBINSON VIC

Stanley Gordon LUM, son of Stephen LUM - a Melbourne merchant - was one of the leading junior players in Victoria and represented that state in Linton Cup competitions. He twice won the South Australian junior singles and doubles championships. Lum was born in Melbourne in 1906, studied at Scotch College and was coached in tennis by Gerald Patterson. He had never left Australia until he was invited to represent China in the Far Eastern Games of 1927. He went on to captain China in the Davis Cup and play at Wimbledon.

1929
J Colin GREGORY GBR (mixed with Mall MOLESWORTH)
Ian G COLLINS GBR (mixed with Sylvia Harper)
William Lyall (Lyall) REYNOLDS WA
Sydney 'Syd' HOCKING (married Gordon BENDER in 1930) SA
Ivy BOWEN
Margaret TAYLOR SA
Peter HOOPER SA
Mrs Eric DAY (nee Nancy WEBB) SA
Bertha KAY SA
FR 'Ray' HONE (mixed with Edna LAWRENCE)
RB 'Ron' HONE (mixed with Dot WESTON)

There were a number of tennis playing Hones from South Australia:

Dr and Mrs Frank S HONE (Frank was a champion in pioneer days) appear to have had six children:

- Dr F Raymond 'Ray' HONE
- Dr Garton M 'Gar' HONE
- Mr Ronald B 'Ron' HONE
- Miss Joyce HONE
- Miss Ruth HONE
- Mr Brian William HONE (born 1908)

Strangely, for this family, Ron Hone was NOT a Doctor, but he married one!

Brian was a very good tennis player and a talented Australian Rules footballer, but was better known as a first-class cricketer. He also excelled academically and was selected as a 1930 Rhodes Scholar.

In 1929, even though Brian and sister Ruth did not enter, Ray, Gar, Ron and Joyce all played in the Australian Championships - possibly a record for siblings in the same Grand Slam tournament.

1932
Robert RP BARBOUR
Allan Walton KNIGHT (1910-1998) - won Australian Real/Royal Tennis Championship for 11 successive years to 1951

Last edited by GeeTee : Nov 3rd, 2011 at 12:32 AM. Reason: typo
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