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Old Sep 3rd, 2004, 06:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
Quite the opposite really- and I'm sorry if the interview conveyed this, because she didn't mean to.

Thanks for the info. on Sarah Palfrey, Jeff. I would say I've picked things up wrongly reading inferences between the lines that weren't there!
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Old Sep 4th, 2004, 02:37 AM   #17
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How would Pauline measure up in a list of all time greats? It was unfortunate that she was just coming to the top of the game as WW2 was beginning so that major tennis was not played on a world wide scale outside of the US. I suppose it would be quite difficult to put her into context because of this as she had not much window of opportunity during her maybe peak years.

I was looking up the Slam results and see she was the clear world #1 for 1946 but then turned professional. How did she rank in the US for the period 1940-45? I got the impression from the interview that she didn't regard the playing skills of Sarah Palfrey Cooke as highly as some other players (I have never heard of this player before) yet I notice Ms Cooke beat Pauline at Forest Hills in both 1941 and 1945 and didn't play in the tournament in 1942 and 44. She also doesn't seem to have competed after 1945.

Could she have been one of Mrs Betz's biggest rivals?

One of the problems with trying to match up Pauline's records to that of other players is sadly she became the best player in the world at the worst possible time. World War II had broken out. As a result there was no Wimbledon, no French and no Australian. The only slam was the US Nationals. From 1942 until 1944, Pauline was ranked # 1 in the United States, but there were no World Rankings. She couldn't even play Wightman Cup until 1946, her last year as an amateur. After the war, in 1946, Pauline won Wimbledon, US Nationals and both of her singles matches and her doubles match in Wightman Cup.

In 1947, The USLTA got hold of a letter written by Elwood Cooke, Sarah's husband, in it he talked about Sarah and Pauline going pro. Now, this was only talking about going pro nothing else. The USLTA hauled Pauline in and told her she could no longer play amatuer tennis. Jack Kramer wrote that it was " closest thing to what the Olympic committee did to Jim Thorpe. It was a crime." In the mean time her contemporaries Brough and Osborne continued playing long after Pauline. All the while racking up records.

Finally, as I recall from my interview Pauline said Margaret Osborne du Pont was her toughest competitor
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Old Sep 4th, 2004, 09:26 AM   #18
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found the follwing links to pauline betz article/ interview in time 1946 and connolly from 1951. http://sports.quickfound.net/tennis_articles_index.html
and http://tennis.quickfound.net/history...lly_index.html
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Old Sep 4th, 2004, 03:23 PM   #19
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Good job Jeff. I've never studied the game much prior to 1971 when I first became interested, but at least I do know the names of the great champions back through the years and Pauline's stands out. I did have the opportunity about a decade ago to play a tournament with Jack Kramer and Vic Sexias. I won the round robbin portion with Vic, but for the finals they switched partners and I played with Jack. We lost a very competitive set, 6-4, to Vic and Mick Luckhurst, a former kicker for the Atlanta Falcons whose wingspan seemed to reach across the entire court! Vic was a gracious winner and gave me his winner's trophy. I can't remember the name of the tournament, but I guess!!! the trophy paled in comparison to the big ones he won in his day!
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Old Sep 20th, 2004, 02:02 AM   #20
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I wanted to add a few things:

Found out that June 8, 1947, Pauline played Sarah Palfey Cooke in a pro match held at the Beverly-Wilshire Hotel. Oddly enough the ref for this match was actor Walter Pidgeon. It was a fun event and they even played mixed doubles. Pauline played with Errol Flynn and Sarah played with Mickey Rooney. The ref was none other than Alice Marble. According to the LA Times, June 8, 1947 "It's likely that the eventual winner of the series will go on tour with Alice Marble..."

Alice would have been about 34-35 years old. A bit past her prime but still it's a shame it didn't happen.

Two other things. William du Pont Jr. is mentioned in the article Jeffster wrote. When I talked with Pauline she described him as "Boring and dull" Here's a picture of Will du Pont jr. I might add it's one of the best pictures I've seen of him. Normally he looks just like the banker he was.




I guess he wasn't Alice's cup of tea, but he did do a lot for tennis in the Delaware area. He married Margaret Osborne and apparently if you go visit their former estate some of Margaret's trophies are on display in the tropy room. Here's a picture of the Belleuve estate:




Pauline said that at times there were as many as 25 guests for dinner. A lot of tennis players stayed here. From Alice,Pauline, Louise and Margaret to male players such as William Talbert. I think Margaret Court in her bio also mentioned staying here. Poor Will no one wanted to sit next to him Pauline said.

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Old Sep 20th, 2004, 04:11 AM   #21
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Thanks for the pics Roan-I'm thinking of going to Bellevue in a few weeks after talking to Louise. My real hope is they'll have a library or archives they'll let me dig around in.

Keep your fingers crossed!

Me thinks the 1947 match you are referring to was the first pro match Sarah and Pauline had. The Hollywood opener was sure to get crowds and publicity.
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Old Sep 20th, 2004, 04:35 PM   #22
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Thanks for the pics Roan-I'm thinking of going to Bellevue in a few weeks after talking to Louise. My real hope is they'll have a library or archives they'll let me dig around in.

Keep your fingers crossed!

Me thinks the 1947 match you are referring to was the first pro match Sarah and Pauline had. The Hollywood opener was sure to get crowds and publicity.

Which was a change from what the other players did. When Lenglen, Browne, Budge and later Alice and Mary turned pro all their opening matches were in NYC at Madison Square Garden.

Louise Brough is easy to talk to. It seemed to me that her memory is actually better than Pauline's. The only thing I really didn't get into with her was anything dealing with Margaret Osborne. She did tell me that it was Alice who introduced Margaret to Will du Pont jr. but that was it.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 11:56 AM   #23
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Here it is kids. I enjoyed every minute of it, and again would like to thank Rollo very much for his help with this- Bobbie is a great lady, and I am honored to have been able to walk down memory lane with her:

http://www.middlestates.usta.com/new...091&itype=1388
Thanks Alfa and Rollo for that wonderful stroll with Pauline.

Obviously she was a very fine player and a down to earth gal. Must have been a buzz to meet with her.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 12:37 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by RoanHJ
I wanted to add a few things:

Found out that June 8, 1947, Pauline played Sarah Palfey Cooke in a pro match held at the Beverly-Wilshire Hotel. Oddly enough the ref for this match was actor Walter Pidgeon. It was a fun event and they even played mixed doubles. Pauline played with Errol Flynn and Sarah played with Mickey Rooney. The ref was none other than Alice Marble. According to the LA Times, June 8, 1947 "It's likely that the eventual winner of the series will go on tour with Alice Marble..."

Alice would have been about 34-35 years old. A bit past her prime but still it's a shame it didn't happen.

Two other things. William du Pont Jr. is mentioned in the article Jeffster wrote. When I talked with Pauline she described him as "Boring and dull" Here's a picture of Will du Pont jr. I might add it's one of the best pictures I've seen of him. Normally he looks just like the banker he was.




I guess he wasn't Alice's cup of tea, but he did do a lot for tennis in the Delaware area. He married Margaret Osborne and apparently if you go visit their former estate some of Margaret's trophies are on display in the tropy room. Here's a picture of the Belleuve estate:




Pauline said that at times there were as many as 25 guests for dinner. A lot of tennis players stayed here. From Alice,Pauline, Louise and Margaret to male players such as William Talbert. I think Margaret Court in her bio also mentioned staying here. Poor Will no one wanted to sit next to him Pauline said.
I just read a portion of "Courting Danger" that is contained in a collection that I'm doing a book review on. The section from the book pertains to Alice's first visit to the Hearst Castle at San Simeon, and her introduction to Marion Davies, as well as playing tennis with Charlie Chaplin (mentioned he cheated terribly on line calls and at one point Teach had to reprimand her with a glaring stare for wanting to hit him with her shots ). I know how you feel about that book and it's apparently fictional accounts and the "spy story", etc., but that little piece from the book seemed really good to me. Alice (or Dan?) goes into good detail about William Randolph Hurst and Marion Davies and it's a fascinating look into the mindset of that era. She wasn't a bad looking gal, either, and I can't imagine her wanting too much to do with duPont, after hearing Pauline's visual imagery on how he was.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 02:02 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
I just read a portion of "Courting Danger" that is contained in a collection that I'm doing a book review on. The section from the book pertains to Alice's first visit to the Hearst Castle at San Simeon, and her introduction to Marion Davies, as well as playing tennis with Charlie Chaplin (mentioned he cheated terribly on line calls and at one point Teach had to reprimand her with a glaring stare for wanting to hit him with her shots ). I know how you feel about that book and it's apparently fictional accounts and the "spy story", etc., but that little piece from the book seemed really good to me. Alice (or Dan?) goes into good detail about William Randolph Hurst and Marion Davies and it's a fascinating look into the mindset of that era. She wasn't a bad looking gal, either, and I can't imagine her wanting too much to do with , after hearing Pauline's visual imagery on how he was.
ESPN Classic ran an old biography of Alice about a year ago. In that she talks about Charlie Chaplin and how ,yes, the little devil did cheat at tennis

As for "Courting Danger" the bit about Hearst Castle actually appears first in Alice's real biography "Road To Wimbledon." Also, I have a transcript from an interview the park people from Hearst Castle did with Alice back in 1977, where she talks about being there and also in Palm Springs. The thing is Jeffster you have to be very careful reading things that Alice talks about or writes about. Alice does make things up. When I went to Hearst Castle and talked personally with one of the guides we talked about the part in her interview with park officials about how she said there was a moat around the Castle. There wasn't. Btw, Teach Tennant's biography gives an even better account of Hearst Castle and the Hollywood crowd in the 1930s and 1940s.

Finally, good old Will du Pont jr. Louise Brough flat out told me Alice "wasn't interested in him." As a matter of fact Louise told me that Alice is the one who introduced Will to Margaret. I guess Alice was trying to get rid of him. So, needless to say he ends up with Margaret Osborne. Btw, on the tape you sent me it sort of cut off at the part about Will. Do you remember just how Pauline said he looked? Pauline just told me he was "boring and dull."
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 02:29 PM   #26
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ESPN Classic ran an old biography of Alice about a year ago. In that she talks about Charlie Chaplin and how ,yes, the little devil did cheat at tennis

As for "Courting Danger" the bit about Hearst Castle actually appears first in Alice's real biography "Road To Wimbledon." Also, I have a transcript from an interview the park people from Hearst Castle did with Alice back in 1977, where she talks about being there and also in Palm Springs. The thing is Jeffster you have to be very careful reading things that Alice talks about or writes about. Alice does make things up. When I went to Hearst Castle and talked personally with one of the guides we talked about the part in her interview with park officials about how she said there was a moat around the Castle. There wasn't. Btw, Teach Tennant's biography gives an even better account of Hearst Castle and the Hollywood crowd in the 1930s and 1940s.

Finally, good old Will du Pont jr. Louise Brough flat out told me Alice "wasn't interested in him." As a matter of fact Louise told me that Alice is the one who introduced Will to Margaret. I guess Alice was trying to get rid of him. So, needless to say he ends up with Margaret Osborne. Btw, on the tape you sent me it sort of cut off at the part about Will. Do you remember just how Pauline said he looked? Pauline just told me he was "boring and dull."
I think it was Rollo who sent you the copy of the tape, but I do remember Pauline describing him as a small guy of slight build, who had very bad shoulders as a result of his fondness for horseback riding, and jumping in particular. His shoulders and collar bones were broken so many times that he had bad posture, and (correct me if I'm wrong here Rollo)- I think she even went as far as to describe him as a "wormy" sort of fellow. I got the impression that he definitely was a little to soft and mealy of a fellow for Pauline- who much preferred the Bobby Riggs / Spencer Tracy kind of whirling Irish devil-out-of-the-bottle swagger. She was one of the boys!
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 02:33 PM   #27
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P.S.- I am absolutely fascinated with the silent film era- from Marion Davies to Gloria Swanson, to Garbo and Pola Negri and Valentino and John & Lionel Barrymore. I think the one person who intrigues me most is the great Suzanne Lenglen. What a character she must have been- and what a star on the world stage to have been able to turn pro in 1926- before Tilden or anyone else did. The parties not only at Hearst Castle, but Pickfair (the Mary Pickford & Douglas Fairbanks estate) must have been chock full of the great tennis players of that era- largely forgotten today, but probably much bigger stars than any tennis player before or since.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 04:09 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
I think it was Rollo who sent you the copy of the tape, but I do remember Pauline describing him as a small guy of slight build, who had very bad shoulders as a result of his fondness for horseback riding, and jumping in particular. His shoulders and collar bones were broken so many times that he had bad posture, and (correct me if I'm wrong here Rollo)- I think she even went as far as to describe him as a "wormy" sort of fellow. I got the impression that he definitely was a little to soft and mealy of a fellow for Pauline- who much preferred the Bobby Riggs / Spencer Tracy kind of whirling Irish devil-out-of-the-bottle swagger. She was one of the boys!
Can't say that I blame her. I'd much rather hang out with Bobby and Spencer than du Pont too. I think what also bothered her was that du Pont was basically a rich guy hoping to buy a tennis champion. She told me that du Pont wasn't a very good tennis player. Despite the sportsman persona he liked to give off he really wasn't a very good athlete. The impression I get is he was a very wealthy man who got tired of his first wife of 18 years and who had 5 kids by him and he wanted a much younger wife who was a champion. Will couldn't get Alice so he basically settled for Margaret. Will's sister Marion did sort of the same thing. She divorced her husband and then married the actor Randolph Scott. I think Pauline saw past what was going on and was turned off by it all.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 04:36 PM   #29
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Can't say that I blame her. I'd much rather hang out with Bobby and Spencer than du Pont too. I think what also bothered her was that du Pont was basically a rich guy hoping to buy a tennis champion. She told me that du Pont wasn't a very good tennis player. Despite the sportsman persona he liked to give off he really wasn't a very good athlete. The impression I get is he was a very wealthy man who got tired of his first wife of 18 years and who had 5 kids by him and he wanted a much younger wife who was a champion. Will couldn't get Alice so he basically settled for Margaret. Will's sister Marion did sort of the same thing. She divorced her husband and then married the actor Randolph Scott. I think Pauline saw past what was going on and was turned off by it all.
Ever see the movie "Mildred Pierce" (1945)? While it's best known for being a Joan Crawford potboiler that finally won her the oscar, Randolph Scott turns in a terrific character performance that really makes the film- a jet-setter with an extremely tarnished view of humanity, and a penchant for betting all he has on the ponies, then gets involved in bilking self-made Mildred out of her money through her devilish daughter. Very interesting era Pauline had at the top of women's tennis, eh?
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 04:56 PM   #30
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Ever see the movie "Mildred Pierce" (1945)? While it's best known for being a Joan Crawford potboiler that finally won her the oscar, Randolph Scott turns in a terrific character performance that really makes the film- a jet-setter with an extremely tarnished view of humanity, and a penchant for betting all he has on the ponies, then gets involved in bilking self-made Mildred out of her money through her devilish daughter. Very interesting era Pauline had at the top of women's tennis, eh?

Great movie! You know I think it was Venus Williams who said "Mildred Pierce" was one of her favorite movies. Anyway, in Teach Tennant's bio she talks about Joan Crawford who was one of her students. Teach said something about Joan being a great mother

And yes, Pauline and Alice lived during some intersting times. The Depression, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, The New Deal, The Golden Age of Hollywood and World War II.
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