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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Robert1
And watching Martina rooting for Chris at the US Open final 1979 says something...
it says tracy was seen by everyone on the tour as a bitchy brat, and that chris & martina were still good friends in '79 before lieberman & richards twisted her mind and turned her into a mass murderer in a tennis dress.
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:19 PM   #32
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And Evert had a halo, lol. Sorry, but everybody knows that Chris Evert was the bigges manipulation b*** Tennis had ever seen. Hey, now we're having fun!!!
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Robert1
And Evert had a halo, lol. Sorry, but everybody knows that Chris Evert was the bigges manipulation b*** Tennis had ever seen. Hey, now we're having fun!!!
while 99% of the world sees her as the most untarnished champion, male or female, in any sport...
some did try to pin the lesbian affair between andrea jaeger & some lezbo on tour as chrissie-maneuvered.
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:36 PM   #34
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That's how good she was at manipulating, so 99% love her.

Peace, Daze, Austin was great, Evert was a great player, I have matches of her on tape, so what. You're a great fan of Chris and my intention's not to take anything away from her.
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Robert1
That's how good she was at manipulating, so 99% love her.

Peace, Daze, Austin was great, Evert was a great player, I have matches of her on tape, so what. You're a great fan of Chris and my intention's not to take anything away from her.
word, r. tracy was a great player, and much better than, say, the temesvaris and bassetts that made big splashes at a young age.
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:49 PM   #36
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..... and better than Evert in 1981. I'm off now very quickly..........
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Old May 27th, 2004, 07:59 PM   #37
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..... and better than Evert in 1981. I'm off now very quickly..........
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Old May 27th, 2004, 08:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Robert1
Austin was AT LEAST as good as the 2 throughout those 3 years, don't you think that? Also I find it a bit disrespectful to say she only won cause the others didn't play good tennis. I mean how good ie. how bad was women's tennis before 79?? For a few years there was no one except for Evert, and that was a part of her dominance. IMO women's Tennis evolved from the late 70s on with Mandlikova, Austin, Jaeger, Shriver coming up, so it's quite obvious that Evert was overtaken not only because she married but also because new super talents came up. Navratilova surely hadn't reached her prime, but her game went up and got much better from 1978 on so saying she wasn't playing her best Tennis at the time (I mean she was good enough to win dozens of tournaments and dominate anyone except for Evert and Austin) is a bit rough.
Austin was AT LEAST as good as the 2 throughout those 3 years, don't you think that?
Robert darling: nein!
Austin was not as good as Navratilova during 79 and the first three months of 1980. From the Avon finals on, Austin overtook Navratilova, who went into self-destruct. No disrespect to anyone else: any book, annual, magazine you can find in the period Mar80-Sept 81 discusses this collapse. This isn't about they whys and wherefores of her situation though, so let's not get sidetracked by it.

Whatever was happening chez Martina, Chris was turning it around big time.
Evert had a rough indoor season in 1980 (during which she lost to Austin and Navratilova) which, on the back of poor performances (by her standards) in 79, had left her struggling. From the Italian Open on, her form was phenomenal: from April 1980 - end of the season she lost just once: to Goolagong at Wimbledon. Austin was better than Navratilova but not as good as Evert in 1980.

In 81, Evert went undefeated for the year into Roland Garros, lost there, but then won Wimbledon. That brings us to 2.5/3 years when either Chris or Martina was CLEARLY ahead of Tracy.

The real battlefield where all three were playing well was from that Wimbledon to the end of the year and this is the period that most people feel Tracy edged out both the other two. In that 6 month period, she was 4-2 vs Martina and 2-1 vs Chris, with Martina 3-1 over Chris (the encyclopaedic memories of JM and Daze are needed to confirm those results). But that's 6 months, max., and if you accept that she did well enough to clinch the year-end ranking, it was only then by the skin of her braced-teeth. This was her real moment in the sun and there I grant you she was playing at least as well as the other two (though she was not going to see Martina for the dust in her eyes soon afterwards).

The only reason Austin scraped a while at #1 was because Chris had had a poor 79 and had to catch up and overtake her. Rankings always lag somewhat behind results because of the 12-month span they cover but when you look at who was winning what, it's easy to see that Tracy snuck into the crack between a transition from Navratilova domination in 79-Mar80 to Evert domination Apr80-Jul 81. Whether or not you feel that by the end of 81 she had done enough to overtake Chris for the year is open to debate but I cannot see for the life of me how that translates into a view of Tracy as the best player over the whole period.
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Old May 27th, 2004, 08:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Robert1
Andy, I totally agree on your major tournament rankings, they are exactly the same than my calculations. So I'm not sure which cannonball you're talking about.
1979: Navratilova, Austin, Evert
1980: Evert, Austin, Navratilova
1981: Austin, Navratilova, Evert.

Your calculation also proved that it was an equal match and that was my itention: Tracy Austin was (at least I might add) as good as Evert and Navratilova in the time span from 1979 for 1981. So, thanks! Sorry, but I must add, for someone who doesn't like this discussion you're investing lots of energy into it... Is Alfa in Paris? (Sorry).

"Tracy Austin was unbeatable last year, but she's not quite as good anymore" - Virginia Ruzici, 1981.

I don't know much about people's perception or general feelings about it back then. I just see the clear figures and they say that it was at least a fight of 3 for 3 years. And watching Martina rooting for Chris at the US Open final 1979 says something...
LOL Alfa arrives tomorrow - terrorists and the airport roof at CDG permitting - so no, he's not typing this in my stead. Do you think I'm turning into him or something?

By the way, for Virginia Ruzici, Chris and Martina were also unbeatable in 79, 80, and 81- throughout her career, in fact - so you shouldn't place too much credence in her words there.

The cannonball is not to do with the performance of Tracy in any one year but her performance over the entre period. She was pretty much always behind either Martina or Chris. Think of it this way: had Martina got Chris' results in 80 and 81, she would've been #1 for the whole period in question and we'd be saying Tracy was #2. had Chris had Martina's 79 season, Chris would've been #1 for the whole period, etc, etc. Tracy only appears to be as good as the two of them in this span because one went off while the other was on and that makes it look as though they weren't so strong overall, when in fact tracy was behind whoever was "on" and ahead of whoever was "off". Do you see what I'm saying?
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Old May 27th, 2004, 09:56 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Robert1
Your contradicting yourself. First you say Austin's no. 1 ranking wasn't backed up, but in 81 the ranking counts (even though Evert's wasn't backed up as much as Austin's would have, as Austin won 3 majors, Evert only 1).

I'm certainly not contradicting myself! Tracy Austin did indeed hold the No.1 ranking for about half of 1980, but not at the all important year end. You are talking about a collective three-year period which is then broken down into three separate sections. Each of these is measured as a whole, and the most accurate way of evaluating a year's performance is by the year-end rankings. So although Tracy did indeed reach the No.1 position undoubtedly that year, when the whole year's performance was calculated, she finished as No.2. And Chris was No.1, both for 1980 and for 1981. And as for Tracy's alleged three majors in 1981 compared to Chris' one - well, if you are counting the Colgate Series Championship at the start of January 1981, surely that was the culmination of the 1980 season, and should be counted for that period? For 1981 a Wimbledon win and an overall better performance in the Slams for Chris outweighs a US Open win and a Tour Series win in my book....
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Old May 28th, 2004, 09:15 AM   #41
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I'm certainly not contradicting myself! Tracy Austin did indeed hold the No.1 ranking for about half of 1980, but not at the all important year end. You are talking about a collective three-year period which is then broken down into three separate sections. Each of these is measured as a whole, and the most accurate way of evaluating a year's performance is by the year-end rankings. So although Tracy did indeed reach the No.1 position undoubtedly that year, when the whole year's performance was calculated, she finished as No.2. And Chris was No.1, both for 1980 and for 1981. And as for Tracy's alleged three majors in 1981 compared to Chris' one - well, if you are counting the Colgate Series Championship at the start of January 1981, surely that was the culmination of the 1980 season, and should be counted for that period? For 1981 a Wimbledon win and an overall better performance in the Slams for Chris outweighs a US Open win and a Tour Series win in my book....
I do agree, then Avon Championships April 80 and Colgate champonships January 81 should not be counted as majors since Chris Evert did not play those two events. Tracy was n° 2 to Martina second half of 79 that culminated with the Colgate championships January 80 where Tracy lost 6-2 6-1 to Martina. In 80, she was n°2 to Evert without discussion.
The only time where she could be considered as leveling or ahead of Evert and Martina was the second half of 81, (even so, she lost to Pam Shriver in quarter finals oz). This is a six-month period we are talking about.
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Old May 28th, 2004, 04:48 PM   #42
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Of course they were major tournaments. The best players in the world have always been playing the sponsor's championships. These 1 or 2 tournaments a year have been the most important events after the Grand Slam tournaments, at times as important as French Open and/or Australian Open.

Austin won as many events as Evert in 1981, plus she was ahead in h2h plus she won 1 Grand Slam tournament (like Evert) plus she won the Championships in January and in November which were at least the 5th and 6th important tournament of the year.

Anyone who is objective sees that Tracy Austin was the number one in 1981. 1979 and 1980 can be argued though.
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Old May 28th, 2004, 05:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Robert1
Of course they were major tournaments. The best players in the world have always been playing the sponsor's championships. These 1 or 2 tournaments a year have been the most important events after the Grand Slam tournaments, at times as important as French Open and/or Australian Open.

Austin won as many events as Evert in 1981, plus she was ahead in h2h plus she won 1 Grand Slam tournament (like Evert) plus she won the Championships in January and in November which were at least the 5th and 6th important tournament of the year.

Anyone who is objective sees that Tracy Austin was the number one in 1981. 1979 and 1980 can be argued though.
the computer is objective. evert #1.
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Old May 28th, 2004, 08:16 PM   #44
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the computer is objective. evert #1.

Jinx! I was just going to say EXACTLY the same thing!!
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Old May 29th, 2004, 01:07 PM   #45
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It wasn't, it put too much emphasise on consistency, that's why Mandlikova was number 5 even though she had reached 4 (!) Grand Slam finals in a row, winning 2 of them. The only reason Evert was number one in 1981 was that Austin lost in the quarters a couple of times. But Austin won more majors and she was ahead in h2h vs. Chris. It was a big weakness in the ranking system that 1) it layed too much emphasis on consistency and 2) didn't give the major wins enough points and 3) didn't give bonuspoints. I'm quite sure that with the (more fair) calculation from early 1984 on, Austin would have been the (deserved) number 1.

Funny that a few months back everyone in here was questioning the dodgy ranking system of the WTA in the 70s/early 80s, but when one questions Evert's ranking points in those years, it was objective all of a sudden.
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