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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 11:51 AM   #16
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Lesley would rank second only to Margaret Court in terms of the best claycourter of the 60s. Ann Jones was reckoned to be a pretty good clay court player and couldn't get a handle on her until after 65. In 1963 Lesley walloped Ann in the semis of the Italian Championships 6-1 6-0.

Having failed to convert match point in the final at RG in 1962 the Gods smiled down on Turner in 1963. Only two weeks after the Italian match Turner and Jones met again in the French final. Jones had been devastating in beating Lehane and Sukova for the loss of only one game in the quarters and semis. With a double break she served for the title at 5-2 in the final set. Lesley won that game to 15 but astonishingly 3 of the 5 points were let-chords all in her favour. A shattered Jones blew it and Lesley stormed through to win the Championship without losing a further game.
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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 12:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by chris whiteside
Lesley would rank second only to Margaret Court in terms of the best claycourter of the 60s. Ann Jones was reckoned to be a pretty good clay court player and couldn't get a handle on her until after 65. In 1963 Lesley walloped Ann in the semis of the Italian Championships 6-1 6-0.

Having failed to convert match point in the final at RG in 1962 the Gods smiled down on Turner in 1963. Only two weeks after the Italian match Turner and Jones met again in the French final. Jones had been devastating in beating Lehane and Sukova for the loss of only one game in the quarters and semis. With a double break she served for the title at 5-2 in the final set. Lesley won that game to 15 but astonishingly 3 of the 5 points were let-chords all in her favour. A shattered Jones blew it and Lesley stormed through to win the Championship without losing a further game.
Oh to have some of these great clay court matches on video!!!! Wouldn't it be terrific if somewhere in a French TV archive we could discover reel-to-reel footage of some of these classic encounters? I'd pay dearly to see even a little of the 1973 Court/Evert final, or Maria Bueno or Lesley Turner at Roland Garros in their prime.
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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 12:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
Oh to have some of these great clay court matches on video!!!! Wouldn't it be terrific if somewhere in a French TV archive we could discover reel-to-reel footage of some of these classic encounters? I'd pay dearly to see even a little of the 1973 Court/Evert final, or Maria Bueno or Lesley Turner at Roland Garros in their prime.
Does RG have a museum? If so, there are probably reels somewhere in their storage. With no television coverage in those days I can only go by newsapaper reports on certain matches but the Court v Turner 1962 final is one I'd love to see and of course Frankie Durr beating Turner in the 67 final.

The one match however that I'd almost give an arm and a leg to see is the 1966 semi between Bueno and Jones. I have heard some commenatators say that they consider this to be Jones best ever match astonishingly even ahead of the Court 1969 Wimbledon semi. Apparently from 0-3 in the first set to 6-5 in the second Ann was literally forced on her heels "by the sheer power of Maria's hitting in a breathtaking brilliance seldom seen in Paris". Somehow she hung on and came through to snatch the second 8-6 and hold her nerve to win the 3rd.
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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 02:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by chris whiteside
Does RG have a museum? If so, there are probably reels somewhere in their storage. With no television coverage in those days I can only go by newsapaper reports on certain matches but the Court v Turner 1962 final is one I'd love to see and of course Frankie Durr beating Turner in the 67 final.

The one match however that I'd almost give an arm and a leg to see is the 1966 semi between Bueno and Jones. I have heard some commenatators say that they consider this to be Jones best ever match astonishingly even ahead of the Court 1969 Wimbledon semi. Apparently from 0-3 in the first set to 6-5 in the second Ann was literally forced on her heels "by the sheer power of Maria's hitting in a breathtaking brilliance seldom seen in Paris". Somehow she hung on and came through to snatch the second 8-6 and hold her nerve to win the 3rd.
Roland Garros does indeed have a museum, it's called the TENNISEUM, and AndyT and I have been there, and I know Andy has returned many times- it's a terrific set-up and they have computer screens where you can go through all kinds of memoribilia, however, they don't have actual complete match footage, only highlights and interviews digitized- lots of interactive, but if you ever go, you'll find Andy buried in the magazine and book collections:

http://www.fft.fr/rolandgarros/en/Frame_terre.html

I think, if memory serves, you may want to send a PM to tennisvideos regarding that Bueno/Jones semi. I'd like to see that one too, and to be honest, I've never seen footage of Ann Haydon Jones playing- it would be a real treat for me because I absolutely love hearing her commentary. She's one of the people in the booth who value silence, and speaks only when it's absolutely necessary or appropriate- rare in a tennis commentator, especially in comparison to people like Connors and Evert in the booth.
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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 06:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
I think, if memory serves, you may want to send a PM to tennisvideos regarding that Bueno/Jones semi. I'd like to see that one too, and to be honest, I've never seen footage of Ann Haydon Jones playing- it would be a real treat for me because I absolutely love hearing her commentary. She's one of the people in the booth who value silence, and speaks only when it's absolutely necessary or appropriate- rare in a tennis commentator, especially in comparison to people like Connors and Evert in the booth.

I don't think there's any footage of the French semi but some exists of the Bueno/Jones semi at Wimbledon that year. Maybe the tennis wasn't of the very highest quality but the later stages of the second set were good and the final set was one of the most exciting I have seen. Jones saved two match points at 8-7 in the second set and eventually took it 11-9. Then in the final set Maria sailed to 5-0. Jones managed to hold serve to save the whitewash but then teased and lobbed her way back to 5-5. At 5-3 serving for the match Maria got to 40-0 and at 5-4 had Ann at 0-40. When Jones had a break point for 6-5 I was literally falling off the edge of my seat in excitement. Those two played a couple of crackers of matches in 1966.

There was an Italian company which sold quite a lot of rare matches. I don't know the full story but a couple of years ago the WTA threatened litigation then dropped it provided the company ceased trading. There are now copyright issues which means that pre-68 footage cannot be obtained.
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Old Aug 13th, 2004, 06:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by chris whiteside
I don't think there's any footage of the French semi but some exists of the Bueno/Jones semi at Wimbledon that year. Maybe the tennis wasn't of the very highest quality but the later stages of the second set were good and the final set was one of the most exciting I have seen. Jones saved two match points at 8-7 in the second set and eventually took it 11-9. Then in the final set Maria sailed to 5-0. Jones managed to hold serve to save the whitewash but then teased and lobbed her way back to 5-5. At 5-3 serving for the match Maria got to 40-0 and at 5-4 had Ann at 0-40. When Jones had a break point for 6-5 I was literally falling off the edge of my seat in excitement. Those two played a couple of crackers of matches in 1966.

There was an Italian company which sold quite a lot of rare matches. I don't know the full story but a couple of years ago the WTA threatened litigation then dropped it provided the company ceased trading. There are now copyright issues which means that pre-68 footage cannot be obtained.
Reno Tomassi had a web site, and in fact I purchased a copy of the 1964 Wimbledon final from him a couple of years ago- it's hysterical, because you can hear Dan Maskell's voice in the BBC background, but it's overdubbed with very loud Italian rattling commentary- every time Maria double faulted- "OH MAMA MIA! DUBIO FALLO!"
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 06:50 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tennisvideos
Lesley had beautiful groundstrokes, and was definately one of the top 4 baseliners of the 60s along with Durr & Richey..... Margaret Court of course was the top claycourter of her era as well as the top grasscourt player.

Margaret Court despite her slight loss of form in 1966 and 1968 was without question the top claycourter of the sixties. Lesley Turner up to 1965 I would also say was No. 2 and although after her "illness" in 1966 she never reached the same level of play as before she still won the Italian Champs in 1967 and 1968 reached the French final in 1967 and semi in 1969 so I would go with her as the ovweall #2.

However I disagree with who the #s 3 and 4 are. The candidates are Nancy Richey, Darlene Hard, Ann Jones, Maria Bueno (twice winner of the Italian) and Francoise Durr - the 1967 French Champion.

Darlene Hard can be quickly discarded because although she won at RG in 1960 she was beaten in the 4th round in 1961 and 2nd round in 1963 and never won the Italian.

These are the records of the others:

NANCY RICHEY

French

1964 L16
1965 S
1966 F
1967 -
1968 W
1969 S

Italian ( 2 entries)

1964 Q
1965 F


MARIA BUENO

French

1960 S
1961 Q
1962 -
1963 -
1964 F
1965 S
1966 S
1967 Q

Italian

1960 -
1961 W
1962 F
1963 -
1964 Q
1965 W
1966 -
1967 F
1968 -
1969 -

German (4 entries)

1962 Q
1964 F
1965 lost in early round
1966 F
1968 Q
1969 -

Ann Jones

French

1960 L16
1961 C
1962 S
1963 F
1964 -
1965 Q ( pulled out injured)
1966 C
1967 Q
1968 F
1969 F

Italian

1960 F
1961 L16
1962 Q
1963 S
1964 -
1965 Q
1966 W
1967 -
1968 -
1969 S

German (3 entries)

1962 F
1964 Q
1966 S

Francoise Durr

1960 2r
1961 3r
1962 L16
1963 L16
1964 2r (default)
1965 Q
1966 Q
1967 W
1968 L16
1969 3r

Italian ( 4 entries)

1964 2r
1966 S
1967 Q
1969 S

German ( 5 entries)

1963 Q
1964 3r
1965 S
1966 Q
1967 W

These are the top players each beat at the French:

Bueno: Durr, Susman, Lehane, van Zyl
Richey: Durr, Smith, van Zyl, King, Heldman
Durr: Bueno, Melville, Turner
Jones: Smith, Lehane, Sukova, Kormoczy, Ramirez, Bueno, Richey, Turner,
van Zyl.

None of them lost at the Italian or German Championships to a player who was not in the top 10. (Durr's 2r defeat at the Italian was to Lehane and 3r defeat at the German to Smith in 1964).

In the French Championships Bueno, Richey and Jones never lost to a player who was not top 10. Durr lost to Pericoli and Sheriff who, although fine players never quite made the top 10.

Because of the USLTA the Americans didn't go to the German.

Maria Bueno's great Italian Championship record of twice Champion and twice runner up as opposed to Jones' once champion, once runner up and twice semi-finallist is more than dwarfed by Ann's French record of twice champion, 3 times runner up and once semi finalist against Maria's once runner up and 3 times semi-finalist.

I'm afraid Francoise Durr's record of French champion in 1967 but never otherwise beyond the quarter-final even backed up by her German victory plus one other semi in both the Italian and German Championships just does not match either the overall records of Bueno or Jones. Furthermore she also lost to lower ranked players. You could say that her early defeats in 1960 and 61 were due to inexperience but in her only 2 appearances at the French in 1957 as an 18 year old Jones reached the semis losing to Knode, a top tenner and in 1958 the quarters losing to the eventual champion Suzy Kormoczy. Similarly, Bueno reached the semi and quarter final in 1958 and 59. Although she is credited as having lost the first round in her only other appearance at RG in 1957 this was because she had to default after the draw was made.

Francoise Durr is a great player with a wonderful personality and oh so unorthodox but in no way can she be considered one of the top 4 baseliners/claycourters of the 60s.

You can argue between Richey and Jones for #s 3 and 4. Nancy had a fantastic record in the US Clay Court Championships but in view of the minimal participation of overseas players this can only prove that she was by far the best American claycourter.

Jones won a number of British Hard Court titles but again not great opposition although she did beat baylon, Lehane and van Zyl in doing so.

I don't think anyone can say that the evidence points to anything other than the four best being Court, Turner, Richey and Jones with Bueno just outside the mix.

Last edited by chris whiteside : Sep 21st, 2004 at 09:21 PM.
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Old Sep 21st, 2004, 07:12 PM   #23
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Terrific analysis Chris. I think the one thing that I learned, and surprised me the most about this terrific education we're all getting from Nancy Richey here in the Blast is that she said Maria Bueno hit the heaviest ball out of any of the players she played against back then, and she also went on to say that you can't always tell how heavy a ball is hit when watching tennis, it's something you feel on your racquet when you make contact with it. Right then and there I learned something about tennis I had never looked at before- concentrating on the weight of a shot instead of spin, trajectory, and action. It has helped me tremendously in the past 2 weeks- especially on clay, a surface which can reward a heavy ball if the stroke is clean and the movement is there to back it up. I've actually had some recent success with serve-and-volley (my preferred style) tennis on clay because of looking at and acting on the weight of shot.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 12:09 PM   #24
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Hi Chris

I know we were talking 60s, but Frankie made the French semis twice in the early 70s as well. So I guess I was factoring in those performances as well - blurring the decades (how convenient) lol. In addition, Frankie did win a fair number of clay court tournaments outside of the French & German championships.

I did indeed overlook Jones - and yet I know how good she was! And I didn't even consider Maria on clay - her clay court record, as you pointed out, was indeed very impressive and surprised me.

I was just making a quick snapshot comment without referring to any of my books/records. And of course Mlle. Durr is always foremost in my mind! I guess I shouldn't make such comments without doing research ... trouble is I just don't seem get the time to indulge these days.

Last edited by tennisvideos : Sep 22nd, 2004 at 12:26 PM.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 01:17 PM   #25
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It's one of those quirks of history that Frankie picked up a RG title whereas Maria didn't - a bit like Ginny and Evonne at the US Open or Conchita and Monica at Wimbledon. I added a couple of results into the Lesley Turner career summary early in this thread and will try and add some more (esp notable wins and full slam results) when I get 5 minutes.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 03:47 PM   #26
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Lesley Turner Bowrey (Richey leads 9-3)
Richey 63 16 62 QF London 1961
Turner 86 86 QF Rome 1964
Turner 63 64 QF Wimbledon 1964
Turner 75 61 Fed Cup 1964
Richey 64 64 SF Dallas 1965
Richey 86 62 F Adelaide 1965
Richey 64 62 F Hobart 1967
Richey 61 64 F Australian Champs 1967
Richey 63 61 QF London 1967
Richey 62 60 F Barranquilla 1968
Richey 75 60 F St. Petersburg 1968
Richey 62 64 QF French Open 1971

When comiling these h2h's I wondered about Turner. She seemed clearly better than Nancy early, but then Nancy passed her and never looked back. I know Nancy's record is better in the late '60's but obviously Turner wasn't the same player after the problems she encountered in the mid-'60's.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 06:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by preacherfan
Lesley Turner Bowrey (Richey leads 9-3)
Richey 63 16 62 QF London 1961
Turner 86 86 QF Rome 1964
Turner 63 64 QF Wimbledon 1964
Turner 75 61 Fed Cup 1964
Richey 64 64 SF Dallas 1965
Richey 86 62 F Adelaide 1965
Richey 64 62 F Hobart 1967
Richey 61 64 F Australian Champs 1967
Richey 63 61 QF London 1967
Richey 62 60 F Barranquilla 1968
Richey 75 60 F St. Petersburg 1968
Richey 62 64 QF French Open 1971

When comiling these h2h's I wondered about Turner. She seemed clearly better than Nancy early, but then Nancy passed her and never looked back. I know Nancy's record is better in the late '60's but obviously Turner wasn't the same player after the problems she encountered in the mid-'60's.

Quite true P/F. I think the breakdown at the start of 1966 was the watershed. Although still managing a top 10 place in 67, 68 and 69 she was not the same player as previously although she did win the Italian in 67 and 68.

There was exactly the same pattern with Ann Jones. Up to 1965 Jones only managed to beat Turner on grass, she lost to her every time on clay which was supposed to be Jones' best surface even when she had winning leads in final sets. From 1967 on, Jones as with Richey never lost to Turner.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 06:32 PM   #28
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Ho Andy, here are some of Lesley's results.

1963

Northern, Manchester, England S lost to Darlene Hard 6-4 6-4
Beckenham, England S lost to Jan Lehane 6-2 7-5

1964

Gstaad was its "own" tournament.
Swiss Championships Lausanne Q lost to Carol Rosser 7-9 6-4 6-2

Queen's Club, London Grass Courts S lost to Ann Jones 6-1 6-2
Hanover Q lost to Madonna Schacht 6-2 2-6 6-2
GERMAN CHAMPS S lost to Maria Bueno 9-11 6-3 6-3
Federation Cup F d. Nancy Richey 7-5 6-1

1965

Northern, Manchester, England S lost to Bueno 6-3 7-5
Beckenham, England Q lost to Moffitt 6-2 6-1
Edgbaston, England Q lost to Wade 6-2 3-6 6-3
German Champs S lost to Buding 7-5 6-2

1967

Federation Cup Berlin
Q lost to Francoise Durr 9-7 6-1
S lost to Ann Jones 6-2 6-2

1968

Caracas Q lost to Val Ziegenfuss 4-6 6-4 8-6
Curacao Q lost to Christian Sandberg 6-4 6-4
Queensland Grasscourts S lost to Karen Krantzcke 6-2 6-4

1969

Tasmanian Champs S lost to Kerry Melville 6-3 4-6 6-2
Victorian Champs Q lost to Kerry Melville 6-4 6-3
NSW Champs Q lost to Margaret Court 6-1 6-1
Caracas S lost to Maria Bueno 8-6 6-3
ITALIAN CHAMPS Q lost to Julie Heldman 3-6 6-4 6-1
Wills West of England, Bristol Q lost to Margaret Court 6-0 6-1
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Old Sep 22nd, 2004, 06:37 PM   #29
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Thanks for these Chris: I'll paste them in at the appropriate points.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #30
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Re: Lesley Turner

*bump*

Can't believe no-ones talked about Lesley in nearly five years!!

One of the greatest Aussies of all time
One of the best players of the 60s (extending into 70s)
Bit of controversy/mystery around her career (esp circa 1966)
Coach of Jelena Dokic
Wife of a male Aussie Open winner
Mother of a coupla former players
Aussie Fed Cup captain
Had chats with TennisVideos!!
And good looking to boot (even tho coming up to 67 years old later this year)

Hello!! Wake Up

PS - Come in AndrewTas!! Career record needed!!
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