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Old Mar 23rd, 2004, 07:53 PM   #151
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No prob.

well, chris didnt lose a single match to austin or andrea from july 82 until her retirement in 1989. that's a streak.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:15 AM   #152
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IMO, indoors can't be considered a surface, in the same sense as grass or clay or hardcourts. It's either indoor hardcourts (i.e. Filderstadt) or carpet (Chicago). Therefore, when classifying the results by surface, I add Filderstadt in with the other hardcourt results.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 04:13 AM   #153
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I have seen these listed as Indoor carpet and Indoor hardcourt as two surfaces, but dont know the 'official' way of listing them. The point, as it relates to evert, is purely an issue of the glare of lights and had nothing to do with whether it was carpet or hard court; she was equally comfortable on both surfaces. It's the indoors part that was the problem for her. she lost sight of the ball indoors, and i know just what she means unfortunately. When i play indoors, I lose the ball as its crossing the net and pick it up when its a few feet from my racquet. Hate it. Its like people who get night-glare when they drive. Most people it doesnt effect, but if you're someone who it does effect, it is very nerve-wracking.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 04:44 AM   #154
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As I said, Jaeger usually was no thread to Evert. Except for the first half of 1982, Evert killed her in 2 straight sets most of the time and I think she was a tougher opponent for Jaeger than Navratilova.

It's a pity Evert vs. Austin didn't play in 82,83,84 except for that one time at the Championships. Did anybody watch this double bagle?

Talking about one's fave surface, mine is 1) indoors 2) clay 3) hardcourt 4) grass
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 08:45 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11
chris' strongest years are without question 1975 - 1978. That is when she was 20 to 24 proceeding John Lloyd distracting her tennis in 79. I do think that 1981-82 is superb Evert as well. 1984 was a transition year with her racquet and she got some clobberings at the beginning but each time gained momentum and better results (which is not like switching a racquet now--you have to hit your shots differently with a wood than a graphite, and she had hit her shots in one way for 10 years; this was not an overnight transition), and by 85 her racquet transition was complete, but she was also 31 years old, so 85 can be counted as a stellar year. 86 was a letdown from 85 plus a divorce to John Lloyd and she opened her return as "Evert" in Houston 87, and in that first tournie beat Martina 7-6 in the 3rd in one of their best matches. She played some of her most incredible tennis is 87/88 but it was very inconsistent greatness as this was the first period in her career with long stretches without playing due to injuries...and getting the zing back when you're 32-34 doesnt happen the same way as it does when you're 17-19.

79 & 84, worst years, but again, thats by Evert standards. She wasnt too shabby 1971-73 either!
I agree with most of what you say, but I actually think the 83 and not 84 was Chris's worst year. She didn't even get a look in at any of the matches she played against Martina that year. At least in 84, she played Martina close in the first couple of sets at the VS final, the first set of the Wimbeldon Final, and then that pearler at the USO. Also Chris made all 4 GS finals in 84, whilst she had that shocker at Wimbeldon in 83, and was flattened by Martina in the USO final. I think 83 for Chris was a bit of a shock, coming to terms with being so far away from the no.1 player. 84 was mainly about closing the gap..................
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 08:53 AM   #156
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While it's true that in 83 the gap between Chris and Martina (at least when it was in Martina's favour) was at its greatest, Chrissie only lost to two other players - Kathy Jordan at Wimbledon when unwell and Lisa Bonder in Tokyo. In 84, she suffered defeats at the hands of Manuela Maleeva in Italy and Kathy Jordan at Eastbourne in addition to those against Martina, so in fact in bothyears she was well ahead of the rest.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 01:52 PM   #157
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Andy, what you say is true. I guess I meant that I thought that 83 was a worse year for Chris than 84, rather than it being her worst year. I started getting into tennis and becoming a Chris fan in 81. After a great 81, and a good 82, 83 was a real disappointment. The lowpoint was Wimbeldon (obviously), and the poor USO final. 84 seemed a much more positive year. By the 84 AO, I really felt that Chris could beat Martina in the final. 83 was even a worse year for me as a Hana fan, but I was pretty happy by the end of 85 on both counts!


As to whether Tracy would have been a force in the 80s had she remained healthy, I definitely think so!. Tracy's success was based on her mental stregnth, hunger, and determination. I don't see that waning during her career had she played out the 80s. I look at all of the significant players until 88, and I think that she would definitely have been up there. Let's break it down a bit:

Martina, Chris and Hana- Tracy definitely belongs in this group, competing for multiple GS titles. I think that she would have been more successful than Hana.

Shriver, Jaegar, Turnbull, Kohde-Kilsch, Hanika- I think that Tracy has proven that she is the measure of these players more often than not.

Sukova, Garrison, McNeil, Jordan- I think that she is more than a match for these players. Tracy loves a target, and these players never ereally bothered Chris (though they each have a couple of wins over her). Plus, these players are quite mentally fragile. Sukova is the only one of this group with decent groundies, and McNeil probably has the most flair.

Manuela Maleeva- probably the only other decent baseliner of the time. Tracy is a better baseliner, more aggressive, and mentally stronger. I don't think that players like Bassett, Bonder, temesavari, Rinaldi et al would have really bothered Tracy.

Sabatini, Graf- this is where things get a bit tougher. Gaby was still developing in the 80s. I don't think that she peaked until 90-92. I think that Tracy's experience and mental toughness would have seen her through on most occassions, though some of the matches would have been tight, and Sabatini would have a few wins.

Graf I think would have been too tough by 87 for Tracy.

Arantxa Sanchez- Really didn't come to prominence until 89. I still think that Tracy is a better baseliner than Arantxa, and older posters also know that i controversially think that Tracy ended up with the better career (addressed in an old thread)

From 89 onwards, Tracy would have been in her late 20s. Seles, Novtna and Martinez would be emerging and Tracy would probably still be good enough to be a rgular in the top 10.

Sigh, I so wish Tracy and Andrea could have played out their careers. How exciting 87 would have been with Martina, Chris, Hana, Tracy, Andrea, Steffi, Gaby, and to a lesser extent Pam, helena, Manuela contending for GS!!!
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:13 PM   #158
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[quote=daze11]Chris was 17-3 against Jaeger, it is not even a rivalry. Jaeger did beat Chris 3 times in 1982, but chris beat Jaeger SEVEN times in 1982. She was in no way shape or form any kind of threat to Evert's dominance in the game.

I would consider that a rivalry....not in the same category of a Chris/Tracy or Martina/BJK but there are three wins by Jaeger there. One in a French Open semi. Also, some of Chris' wins were when Jaeger was very young. Andrea in no way threatens Chris' dominance of the game. But I bet if you asked Chris, she considered Andrea a strong rival.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:30 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
While it's true that in 83 the gap between Chris and Martina (at least when it was in Martina's favour) was at its greatest, Chrissie only lost to two other players - Kathy Jordan at Wimbledon when unwell and Lisa Bonder in Tokyo. In 84, she suffered defeats at the hands of Manuela Maleeva in Italy and Kathy Jordan at Eastbourne in addition to those against Martina, so in fact in bothyears she was well ahead of the rest.
I agree, 1983 is a bad year only by Evert's standards. Anyone else except Martina would have killed for those kinds of results. All credit to Chris and Martina for setting that standard way up there.

Although Evert didn't get the results she wanted in 84, I think it has to be considered a great year for her. The Chris of 84 would have destroyed the Chris of the 70's. The graphite helped her and even in early 84, Chris was starting to show that her physical training was paying off.

I'd also have to agree with Daze that the older she got (or anyone else) the harder it was to play at a high level match in and match out. She did play some very good tennis in 87/88.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:54 PM   #160
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I thought strongly about 83, and didnt mention it because she had 9 loses but 7 were to Martina, so we're talking about a 2-loss year outside of those confrontations. THROUGHOUT 83, Martina was playing with graphite and Chris with wood, which some of us have suggested in our own playing, makes a big difference and so at the upper-pro level, even more of a difference. So if Chris thought 83 was hot, she wouldn't have switched to graphite for '84!!

But then I thought, yes, but her PLAY was still good in '83....just not against Martina. It was '84, when she had to adjust to this new graphite racquet after playing 29 years with the same wilson wood racquet, that she had the toughest time. Her results against Martina did, over the course of the year, improve and improve. But its hard to count '84 is being stellar.

Let's give the old lady some credit here: While others are off retiring at 29, Chris is agreeing to switch racquets and step up to the challenge of this rivalry!!

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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:58 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HanaFanGA
The Chris of 84 would have destroyed the Chris of the 70's. The graphite helped her and even in early 84.
This has kind-of been my point about the racquets, both then and the result in players now...Chris was NOT better in 84 than 83 or the chris of the mid/late 70s...the racquet was. The RACQUET improved chris' results, not chris. I am 95% sure she would tell you this is true because she has often talked about how many techinical things she was trying to figure out how to correct in the spring to summer of 84 especially.

And while certainly chris improved her serve a BIT and her volley a BIT by 84, we can not compare her concentration level to Chris of 1975 when she was 21 and brimming with the confidence and fearlessness of youth. Her mistake in playing Martina during that 83/84 period was in respecting her too much; a younger Evert would'n't be thinking, "Who's this coming up on me and passing me at #1, i have to save face, she is much hungrier than I am, blah blah" she would be thinking ,"Who is this person who thinks she's gonna get some games from me?" - NOt that Martina wasn't up for the challenge then, but Chris' attitude and focus level was not what it had been, I have no question of that from having seen so much of her mid 70s play. Her powers of concentration and accuracy were truly freightening, and that was not true in the 80s in general, as good as she still was. She was probabbly still the toughest mentally; Martina said in '94 that chris was the toughest mentally of all the players she faced. But imagine it even tougher and more fearless, and you have Chris of the 70s.

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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 04:47 PM   #162
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Yeah I agree that Chris was probably tougher mentally when she was dominating the mid-late 70's, but I think Chris became a much better athlete in the mid-80's and was, therefore a better player overall. She was stronger, faster and more resiliant. I think Chris 1984 would have beaten Chris 1976, with or without a wood racket. She evolved, just like the game did. Martina had a lot to do with this. just compare their 1978 Wimbledon final in terms of power/speed/court coverage to their 1984 final. They were both pushing the envelope by that time.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 06:27 PM   #163
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This is really like a bunch of artists sitting around talking aesthetics, and one is a cubist, one a surrealist, and one a portrait artist.

Far as I'm concerned, when Chris left wood in '83, the grace of her game was cut in half. Every stroke she hit used to be like a slice of poetry. The change in shot production to adapt to the cold graphite made tennis a harder, slicker, faster, more Roman sport and took away its Greek idealism and intellectual beauty.

What WAS great about tennis is that athletes--which are a dime a dozen--were not necessarily able to beat good thinkers, and so there was a sport that did more than tone your body. INTERESTING COMMENT on the tennis channel from hingis, "Professional sport is not exactly the most healthy thing in the world" ... well, it used to be. Now players spend a lot more time damaging their bodies despite all this concentration on health. The sport got more and more about gyms and less about librarians beating people who spent way too much time at the gym.

i think all the athleticism has thrown the game out of balance. I mentioned this once to Mary Carillo, "Who cares about a great athlete?" I said. I want someone who is MORE than an athlete. She was like, 'Uhh... I care." hahaha....
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 06:41 PM   #164
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i mean, granted - i'm a weird guy. But IMO, the shift away from wood occurred right alongside the dramatic rise of a lack of concern for sportsmanship in the game.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 07:01 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11
i mean, granted - i'm a weird guy. But IMO, the shift away from wood occurred right alongside the dramatic rise of a lack of concern for sportsmanship in the game.
I'd go a little bit farther back, and say it parallels the advent of Open Tennis. Much as I love Billie Jean King, and what she's accomplished, she was a spearhead in bringing down the old establishment and one of her major causes was tennis as a business. She (with the help of Gladys Heldman, who if you think about it, wouldn't have been allowed to play at many of the old clubs) was largely successful in bringing about this change. The period between 1968 and 1977 saw the rise of players like Ilie Nastase, Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, and a host of other players who not only didn't have any concern for sportsmanship, they actually milked careers out of being brash bad boys. The tennis industry ate them up, and in effect promoted them, because they sold tickets and people turned on the TV when they played.

I agree with you on the super-athlete as a tennis player. So much of the game has been eroded, that it's nearly unrecognizable.
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