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Old Aug 18th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #661
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
Cajka, she took it to her! That volley at 6-6! I can't even be mad.
Don't give her all the credits. Serena's horrible serve, passive game, lazy footwork, poor movement, strange drop shot attempts and generally bad attitude also helped. Azarenka was far from her best.
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Old Aug 18th, 2013, 11:21 PM   #662
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Don't give her all the credits. Serena's horrible serve, passive game, lazy footwork, poor movement, strange drop shot attempts and generally bad attitude also helped. Azarenka was far from her best.
True, but she deserves credit for being the only player who has the skills and mental strength to take it to Serena every time, and push her to the brink when shes not playing well.
Serena still would have beaten everybody else in the Top 10 in straights playing as poorly as she did today.
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Old Aug 18th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #663
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
True, but she deserves credit for being the only player who has the skills and mental strength to take it to Serena every time, and push her to the brink when shes not playing well.
Serena still would have beaten everybody else in the Top 10 in straights playing as poorly as she did today.
Would you give Maria credits if she could beat Serena now and then?
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #664
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
Not just African Americans, but Black European posters, too.

Its not easy to be politically conscious when you are facing extreme poverty, starving, and trying to feed your family, and people are coming in taking your jobs. What they are doing is abhorrent, but think critically about the situation for a moment. These people are in life or death situations, not just "I wont be able to buy wine with dinner tonight." Thats why people are acting out in these extreme ways. You need to look at it from a perspective other than your (comparatively) wealthy, Eurocentric perspective. Its easy to judge these people for doing what appears to be irrational, from your lofty perspective. People only act out in those extreme ways when they are in a dire situation.
i understand their situation. people in europe feel resentment about immigration because they fear for their jobs as well. there are no riots because europe is rich and extreme poverty doesn't exist but plenty of workers in europe live on the edge.

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Obsessed? LOL. Thats an interesting word to use.
And why do you think that is?
you said it yourself, because you are african american and you care only about your ethnic group. which is why debate about everything and anything always drifts towards white on black racism. i can picture a situation where neo-nazis in europe beat up, say, 10 immigrants only 1 of which is black yet black posters would be talking about that one black person while ignoring everyone else. hence the word obsession.

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
This got way too complicated. It's fine to say that the world is ruled by privileged (mostly) white people, but it's wrong to say that whites are privileged in general. That's it. Do white immigrant have it any better in European countries than blacks? If they choose to assimilate, then I guess they do. But I don't know how it works with blacks who try to assimilate.
i don't think it's much more difficult for them than to any other visible minority. the problem is that most black people arrive to austria as asylum seekers and are essentially illegal immigrants.

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I can speak about Romani people in Serbia. It's off topic, but I guess it's OK to speak about other types of racism.
the un charter defines racist discrimination as discrimination based on someone's heritage so that's not off-topic. and discrimation against roma in many part of europe can be quite shocking.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 08:13 PM   #665
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Would you give Maria credits if she could beat Serena now and then?
Hell no. If she were to ever beat Serena again, that would be a sign that Serena is losing it and should retire soon.

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
you said it yourself, because you are african american and you care only about your ethnic group. which is why debate about everything and anything always drifts towards white on black racism. i can picture a situation where neo-nazis in europe beat up, say, 10 immigrants only 1 of which is black yet black posters would be talking about that one black person while ignoring everyone else. hence the word obsession.
If I only care about my own ethnic group, then why would I care about a black in Europe? Most likely he would be an African immigrant and not from the US, so he wouldn't be a part of my ethnic group. My ethnic group is African American. I care primarily about my ethnic group when it comes to the United States, because of the difficult and unique position we are in, but I don't extrapolate that across the entire globe. But I do feel that black people in Europe are in a unique situation in Europe as well, and to collapse their experiences into an "immigrant" story just serves your agenda, it doesn't necessarily reflect reality (based just on some of the reps I've got for posts in this thread from non-Americans, and Black Europeans I know).

You are obsessed with showing how Europe is not like the evil United States with its virulent anti-black racism. Which is fine, I never said that Europe was exactly like the US. I'm not even one of the evil "African American" posters that gets in those European racial discussions, so I'll just let this debate go.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #666
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
i understand their situation. people in europe feel resentment about immigration because they fear for their jobs as well. there are no riots because europe is rich and extreme poverty doesn't exist but plenty of workers in europe live on the edge.
define extreme poverty.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #667
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
If I only care about my own ethnic group, then why would I care about a black in Europe? Most likely he would be an African immigrant and not from the US, so he wouldn't be a part of my ethnic group. My ethnic group is African American. I care primarily about my ethnic group when it comes to the United States, because of the difficult and unique position we are in, but I don't extrapolate that across the entire globe. But I do feel that black people in Europe are in a unique situation in Europe as well, and to collapse their experiences into an "immigrant" story just serves your agenda, it doesn't necessarily reflect reality (based just on some of the reps I've got for posts in this thread from non-Americans, and Black Europeans I know).
well, then, continue to feel support for your worldview based on good reps you got on the bastion of intellectualism that this board is. and those black europeans and non-americans who gave you good reps could as well post something and contribute to the discussion. i'm sure they have nothing to contribute to it, though. and you "feel" that black people in europe are in the same position as in the us. apart from feelings anything else? black people are obviously not in the same situation in africa, since they are able to do ugly things to other black people. that already challenges your worldview. why would it be different outside of that continent? and it does fit in my agenda, which i don't feel ashamed of at all. it is about what you say you would wish for but don't believe in. well, i do. i think it's possible even in your country and this side of the atlantic where black people didn't arrive as slaves it certainly should be. so yes, i am inviting black people to "collapse" their experience into an immigrant story. if they can't "collapse" it even further into a working class story. and deniying the existance of racist discrimination is not a working class story, mind.

and there are no "evil" african americans around, just thouroughly misguided ones. just like there are misguided white people.

but yes, this is getting tiring. i think we are both opposed to racism but differ strongly about the ways to erase its effects on the society. if we had to face some serious racists (the trolls on this thread are not worth the effort) we would be on the same side. would we be able to support each other in our different contexts? probably not.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #668
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
define extreme poverty.
that's very difficult to define and there has been plenty of research on it. in some countries it is very difficult to recover from being homeless because of the stigma that gets atached to people who have fallen so low. in others not so much. it is a social construction as much as it is an existential one.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #669
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
that's very difficult to define and there has been plenty of research on it. in some countries it is very difficult to recover from being homeless because of the stigma that gets atached to people who have fallen so low. in others not so much. it is a social construction as much as it is an existential one.
Name one.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #670
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Re: Racism?

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the un charter defines racist discrimination as discrimination based on someone's heritage so that's not off-topic. and discrimation against roma in many part of europe can be quite shocking.
Are there many Romani people in Austria? If there are, how is your government dealing with their issues? It's a huge problem here and our government is clueless. There are affirmative actions, but, as you understand, it helps only those who are integrated to some level.

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Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
Hell no. If she were to ever beat Serena again, that would be a sign that Serena is losing it and should retire soon.


Didn't Svetlio find some proves that you used to be a fan?
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #671
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Nicolás89 View Post
Name one.
i hope this wasn't misunderstood. you can recover to the basic makes end meet level. if you recover from frustration and humiliation. and if you can call that a recovery.

i understand that being poor in some really poor countries sucks and can threaten your life. it still depends on the society you live in, though. poverty is relative.
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #672
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Are there many Romani people in Austria? If there are, how is your government dealing with their issues? It's a huge problem here and our government is clueless. There are affirmative actions, but, as you understand, it helps only those who are integrated to some level.
most romani people here are actually from serbia as far as i can tell. and the funny thing is i used to think about them as serbian. then i went to a club here with our australian friend and when we showed pictures from the night to some serbian people they said many/most people who were there were romani. but everyone here thinks of them as serbian and i think that improves their standing. being discriminated as serbian is better than being discriminated as romani. kinda what i feel is happening to black people here too (becoming "just" foreigners). far from ideal but still an improvement.

romani people are a recognised minority in austria but the native ones are few. i remember there was a bomb attack that killed a few something like 20 years ago i know they face discrimination in serbia and i saw a roma slum in belgrade. nevertheless, serbian romani people here integrate well. i don't know if they assimilate or what but for the most part most people now i do recognise as romani speak only german and serbian to each other, so it's strange. the newcomers from romania face more problems.

a romani family from serbia live right below me, great people even though they listen to some annoying music
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Old Aug 19th, 2013, 10:15 PM   #673
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Re: Racism?

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
most romani people here are actually from serbia as far as i can tell. and the funny thing is i used to think about them as serbian. then i went to a club here with our australian friend and when we showed pictures from the night to some serbian people they said many/most people who were there were romani. but everyone here thinks of them as serbian and i think that improves their standing. being discriminated as serbian is better than being discriminated as romani. kinda what i feel is happening to black people here too (becoming "just" foreigners). far from ideal but still an improvement.

romani people are a recognised minority in austria but the native ones are few. i remember there was a bomb attack that killed a few something like 20 years ago i know they face discrimination in serbia and i saw a roma slum in belgrade. nevertheless, serbian romani people here integrate well. i don't know if they assimilate or what but for the most part most people now i do recognise as romani speak only german and serbian to each other, so it's strange. the newcomers from romania face more problems.

a romani family from serbia live right below me, great people even though they listen to some annoying music
You posted about how hard it is to recover from being homeless. Many of Romani people here are practically homeless and beggars. In some cases they were given apartments to live in, but some of them sold it and kept on living in ghetto. That's the example of how hard it is to recover from being homeless. Romani people who are middle-class don't face discrimination, but others do. It's not enough to give them a place to live if they can't get a job, if they're still discriminated. It's a short-term solution. Sooner or later, they'll get back to their previous life.

I totally approve affirmative actions, we need more educated Romani people and it can definitely motivate them, but it only solves a part of the problem.

And the racism towards them is quite opened. Bad jokes about gypsies, nasty comments... People don't even try to hide their feelings about them. That's mostly because Serbian people are really brash. They don't go around and kill Romani people, they don't feel threatened at all, but they will call them out openly about their life style, hygiene etc. It's hard to describe, people here are disgusted by their life style and they are don't trust them, that's why they won't give them a job if they are not clean, with decent accent etc. But I don't have an impression that people here really hate gypsies and want them gone. They even like them in some way for some unusual reasons. It's simply too weird, like everything here.
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