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Old Jun 7th, 2014, 12:27 PM   #121
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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No it isn´t Sure scottish friends have better data of this. "The Game" is just about to begin. Hold.... hold.... hold....
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i will vote for independence.
it won't be a nationalistic vote (unlike some people will vote "yes" or "no" based almost wholly on a patriotic pride to be scottish or to be british) but rather one made because i think it would be better for us politically and potentially economically.

and yes, i think as far as the big issues go, our connection with england is more harmful than beneficial. in the last 30 years we have seen scotland used as a testing ground for unpopular policies, the ongoing use of scottish waters to house britain's nuclear submarines and trident missiles and scotland has been dragged into wars that the people wanted no part of. in that time, scotland has never voted Conservative, but we have been governed by the Conservatives for the vast majority of the time.

remaining with england offers scotland a degree of stability, i suppose, and as part of britain it can be said that we have more influence globally than an independent scotland would have, but personally i'm not too concerned about that.
do you think most scottich will vote yes or be afriad and say no? how much the english even care if you will be part of the UK or not?
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Old Jun 7th, 2014, 01:08 PM   #122
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i will vote for independence.
it won't be a nationalistic vote (unlike some people will vote "yes" or "no" based almost wholly on a patriotic pride to be scottish or to be british) but rather one made because i think it would be better for us politically and potentially economically.

and yes, i think as far as the big issues go, our connection with england is more harmful than beneficial. in the last 30 years we have seen scotland used as a testing ground for unpopular policies, the ongoing use of scottish waters to house britain's nuclear submarines and trident missiles and scotland has been dragged into wars that the people wanted no part of. in that time, scotland has never voted Conservative, but we have been governed by the Conservatives for the vast majority of the time.

remaining with england offers scotland a degree of stability, i suppose, and as part of britain it can be said that we have more influence globally than an independent scotland would have, but personally i'm not too concerned about that.
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No. Salmond's fantasy of independent Scotland involves him cherry-picking what he likes (which he clearly isn't getting, considering the failed currency/EU membership claims, etc.)

As much as I'd like to become like a Nordic country, we have neither the resources nor the social structure, and won't for some while (if at all). It's megalomania at it's best. Needless to say I'll be voting no.
Setting up a range of new institutions will cost at least £1.5bn, the equivalent of £600 per Scottish household, according to reports, i dont see how we can create an equal scotland with raising income tax for example.
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Old Jun 7th, 2014, 01:18 PM   #123
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post

in the last 30 years we have seen scotland used as a testing ground for unpopular policies, the ongoing use of scottish waters to house britain's nuclear submarines and trident missiles and scotland has been dragged into wars that the people wanted no part of. in that time, scotland has never voted Conservative, but we have been governed by the Conservatives for the vast majority of the time.

.
What is your definition of vast?

In the past 30 years it has worked out at 17 Conservative, 13 Labour.

You could almost say that Labour has governed for almost half of the time. And wasn't the Party that dragged Britain into wars the Labour Party under Blair? You probably don't want to list the Falklands War and the Cold War in Thatcher's time. Britain won those.
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Old Jun 7th, 2014, 10:40 PM   #124
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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how do you think the rest of the Scottish will vote? with what is he playing in case he will get his wish and you will be Independence if you cant support yourself or be on your own?
sorry for looking at it in a cold and harsh way but i work in finance its stronger than me, it seems like a very risky Financially step in a Period of instability
I don't see the Yes vote winning this time. I'm not entirely against the principle of independence, but I agree with you in saying that it's not a wise decision to make now, at least fiscally speaking.

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
and yes, i think as far as the big issues go, our connection with england is more harmful than beneficial. in the last 30 years we have seen scotland used as a testing ground for unpopular policies, the ongoing use of scottish waters to house britain's nuclear submarines and trident missiles and scotland has been dragged into wars that the people wanted no part of. in that time, scotland has never voted Conservative, but we have been governed by the Conservatives for the vast majority of the time.

remaining with england offers scotland a degree of stability, i suppose, and as part of britain it can be said that we have more influence globally than an independent scotland would have, but personally i'm not too concerned about that.
I think that the testing of unpopular policies in Scotland is something that devoplus/max aims to prevent. What policies have been tested on Scotland since the Thatcher era though? Not to say that you're wrong, rather that I'm not really that well informed on the topic and would like to know.

As for war/nuclear weapons, it's not just Scotland who was against the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, it seems to have been an unpopular decision across the UK.
I don't think that the UK needs a nuclear deterrent at all - the reason Trident was brought in was deter the Eastern Bloc in the '80s; and it's not like that's all the UK has to defend itself with. Interestingly, the majority of Scottish MPs voted against upgrading Trident while the rest of the country voted for it, in the main. In that case, I don't see why the missiles can't just be relocated to another base. However, that would come at the cost of hundreds of jobs/relocation to outside Scotland.

I'm not concerned about Scotland's 'influence' on world affairs either, but it's not just that which Scotland would be giving up. Countries such as Slovenia have done well enough, sure, but it's all relative. How important is Slovenia in world markets? Scotland does have more strings to its bow, such as oil, financial services, etc., but a lot of this is owned by foreign stakeholders. I'm not too sure if an independent Scotland could sustain the way in which everything operates here today.
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 09:20 PM   #125
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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do you think most scottich will vote yes or be afriad and say no? how much the english even care if you will be part of the UK or not?
most scots will vote no. many are happy to be british, etc and will vote no for that reason, but i think when it comes to the crunch, those who are undecided will vote no.

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
What is your definition of vast?

In the past 30 years it has worked out at 17 Conservative, 13 Labour.

You could almost say that Labour has governed for almost half of the time. And wasn't the Party that dragged Britain into wars the Labour Party under Blair? You probably don't want to list the Falklands War and the Cold War in Thatcher's time. Britain won those.
true. i guess i should have extended it to 35 years. the fact is that the conservatives would have ruled scotland for a grand total of zero years had it been up to the scots.

and yes, the labour party is equally guilty, but there is more desire for britain to be part of things on a global stage and to retain military influence in the world, even if that is mainly as the usa's lapdog. an independent scotland is more likely to be different whoever is in charge. and for that matter, the most popular party in scotland regardless of the way this vote goes is the snp - and they have been opposed to all of labour's wars.

and of course i include the falklands. whether britain "wins" or not isn't really relevant. you can describe the cold war as a war if you like, i suppose, but even if you do that, it has to be remembered that during the cold war we trained, armed and funded people like bin laden in an effort to win that "war".

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Originally Posted by legalise# View Post
I don't see the Yes vote winning this time. I'm not entirely against the principle of independence, but I agree with you in saying that it's not a wise decision to make now, at least fiscally speaking.



I think that the testing of unpopular policies in Scotland is something that devoplus/max aims to prevent. What policies have been tested on Scotland since the Thatcher era though? Not to say that you're wrong, rather that I'm not really that well informed on the topic and would like to know.

As for war/nuclear weapons, it's not just Scotland who was against the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, it seems to have been an unpopular decision across the UK.
I don't think that the UK needs a nuclear deterrent at all - the reason Trident was brought in was deter the Eastern Bloc in the '80s; and it's not like that's all the UK has to defend itself with. Interestingly, the majority of Scottish MPs voted against upgrading Trident while the rest of the country voted for it, in the main. In that case, I don't see why the missiles can't just be relocated to another base. However, that would come at the cost of hundreds of jobs/relocation to outside Scotland.

I'm not concerned about Scotland's 'influence' on world affairs either, but it's not just that which Scotland would be giving up. Countries such as Slovenia have done well enough, sure, but it's all relative. How important is Slovenia in world markets? Scotland does have more strings to its bow, such as oil, financial services, etc., but a lot of this is owned by foreign stakeholders. I'm not too sure if an independent Scotland could sustain the way in which everything operates here today.
all perfectly valid points. and yes, other than the poll tax and the enthusiastic application of poindings and warrant sales in scotland, there hasn't been anything much. the poll tax backlash helped to bring down thatcher and people learned their lesson.

you're right about the war being unpopular across the uk. i'm not suggesting that it was more unfair on the scottish people than the english people in general, but independence would ensure that it was less likely to happen again.

and yeah, success is all relative. i just don't see there being some kind of pit of despair which scotland slides into after independence. as far as the oil is concerned, i'd nationalise it. i know that is never going to happen (for a wide variety of reasons), but it would be the way i'd like to see the country go.
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Old Jun 10th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #126
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

If the vote is no, when would it be reasonable to have another referendum?

20 years time? 10? 5?

We can't really have that uncertainty.

Maybe the worst result would be a narrow no vote. That would make it clear that the direction of travel is independence but leave everyone on limbo waiting for the years to tick by to the next vote.

As I've said I think there is a serious case for England to also consider independence, I believe northern England gets overlooked as it does not have the leverage that the Scottish parliament has.
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Old Jun 14th, 2014, 06:31 PM   #127
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

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If the vote is no, when would it be reasonable to have another referendum?

20 years time? 10? 5? We can't really have that uncertainty.
If NO wins, my quess is that there will be not another vote in our lifetime.

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Old Jun 16th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #128
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Re: Scotland to vote of Independence next year (18.9.14)

I read recently that 52% are currently saying no and 48% are saying yes, apprently the closest it has ever been.
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