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38K views 571 replies 92 participants last post by  Anabelcroft 
#1 · (Edited)
Dead thread, please close.
 
#186 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

IMO,she is not overlooked.

If she is voted the greatest by so many others,that shows general opinion.She would be overlooked if she wasn't.

Maybe Navratilova or Court can find themselves overlooked due to their doubles and mix doubles achievements,but it's not up to me to decide that,but to general opinion which reflects in voting.
 
#222 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I can't at Graf stans overusing the superinflated slam count to prove Graf is the goat yet using H2Hs that include irrelevant matches at Germany to prove that Seles never dominated Graf even at her peak. From 1990 to 1993 Graf was 1-3 in slams finals against Monica, and that number was going to remain at Monica's favor for many many years if what we all know hadn't happened.

Truth is Seles's stabbing is a "what if..." that happened, accept it.
 
#223 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

that number was going to remain at Monica's favor for many many years if what we all know hadn't happened.
And based on what circumstances you think that that number would have been bigger?

Outside that H2H,~which is important as you compare games of two players DIRECTLY when faced each other, Monika never beat Steffi anywhere aside slow courts, so one could say easily that that number also would go into Steffi's favor...

So, with H2H going in her favor plus the fact that she was never beaten by her rival in anywhere outside slow courts could tend us to believe that trend would continue...but we will never know and it's stupid to assume one thing or another as they never happened!
 
#228 · (Edited)
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

This thread is a joke. Graf overlooked? Only by people (generally Seles fanatics) who would like play revisionist history and spin ever increasing number of "what if" scenarios from their overheated imaginations.
Spot on...

As they hate her career they pretend to be Graf fans just in order to hide their subjectivity from others and sound more truthfully objective just in order to gain followers and try to spin generally accepted public opinion of her greatness next time the greatest poll shows up...

But,this guy who made this thread has failed!
 
#234 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I dont consider Graf the GOAT but it has nothing to do with the Seles stabbing, especialy as I consider Seles an exagerrated player anyway, not ever someone who was going to dominate the game for 5-10 years. Navratilova at 29 and older was still often beating Graf. Based on that it is hard to believe for me Graf really has more ability than her. Serena I also watch and think she would have crushed Graf prime to prime. So for me those two are just better than Graf. Graf for me is probably 3rd.
 
#236 · (Edited)
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

So for me those two are just better than Graf.
It's not a point who do you think is better,but who is greater...You must be always better than the others to be more and more greater!

And greater is just the one who more often brings better!

If we talk about who is better,it's very subjective.As you brought Serena,one people could compare them to other players and say :"Yeah, but for me Bammer,Sanchez-Vicario and Tiantian Sun are better tennis players than Serena because she has a very bad record against them(2-7)." which is, of course, ridiculous...but as there subjectivity takes place there is no space to argue about as we all think different just based on our subjectivity!

That's why greatness is measured just based on accomplished records and results.
 
#251 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Oh good Lord, does this ever end??

In grim darkness of the far future, there is only Graf-Seles threads.
 
#262 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Not to mention there are many people who are Serena and Graf fans. I love both players and think Serena is already a top 3 player of all time, and if Graf has to pass her mentle of GOAT onto something I hope it is Serena. Seles is not and never will be in the same planet as either player, other than in her delusionals Tards eyes.
 
#263 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Not to mention there are many people who are Serena and Graf fans. I love both players and think Serena is already a top 3 player of all time, and if Graf has to pass her mentle of GOAT onto something I hope it is Serena. Seles is not and never will be in the same planet as either player, other than in her delusionals Tards eyes.
I happen to be a fan of both Graf and Serena, but give Nav's, Evert and even Court (along with BJK and Althea Gibson), their mad props for everything they accomplished and represented, both on and off the court. :yeah:
 
#282 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

@Cehoardrx7, Anabelcroft, etc.

Don't stop with your vigilance Cehoardrx7. It makes you who you are.

Hey, we all can't be the same on this website for it to have diversity.

I think we all learn (me included) to temper our most reactive emotions, in order to cohabitate on this site with others.

Cause once we all realize that the other poster is cool and/or laid back, it puts us all at ease. No one wants to be in a dog fight all the time.

So keep defending Monica, just don't Death Kill US every time, or save it for other/new posters. :lol:


But it's all good, for fun. Most of the time, we're all just exchanging ideas. But because it's in print and usually written quickly, many times we draw the wrong conclusions (about both what's written and the poster).
 
#284 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

@Cehoardrx7, Anabelcroft, etc.

Don't stop with your vigilance Cehoardrx7. It makes you who you are.

Hey, we all can't be the same on this website for it to have diversity.

I think we all learn (me included) to temper our most reactive emotions, in order to cohabitate on this site with others.

Cause once we all realize that the other poster is cool and/or laid back, it puts us all at ease. No one wants to be in a dog fight all the time.

So keep defending Monica, just don't Death Kill US every time, or save it for other/new posters. :lol:


But it's all good, for fun. Most of the time, we're all just exchanging ideas. But because it's in print and usually written quickly, many times we draw the wrong conclusions (about both what's written and the poster).

 
#288 · (Edited)
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

cehowardrx7

I'll give you another example. They once asked Chris Evert "if someone had suddenly taken out Martina Navratilova, how many more majors do you think you would have won"?

You know Chrissies first impulse was to answer/give a number, then she immediately caught herself and said "Martina pushed her, made her work harder, KEPT HER IN THE GAME LONGER".

Evert felt, that if it wasn't for Martina, she would have actually RETIRED A LOT SOONER, cause they're would have been little to play for. But Evert admitted Martina made her work hard, and inspired her competitive juices.

Now who knows if that would have really been the case. How ever, I think it could have been the same the case that Seles having a longer career, may not had denied Graf as many Majors as some of us think (not including if Monica would have lasted that long at that level). It would/could have just made Steffi Graf play longer or get better, and she still may have had her 18-24 majors anyway.

And in Seles case (this is what people hate to hear), she wasn't seriously injured. Now, if you wanna say, "the stabbing effected her play", okay, fine. You can say that. On the other hand, if it was another player, I don't know if it would have made much difference in their performance. They would have just moved on (see Paul Pierce example). But everyone's different. And that's why some people make threads about Monica 2.0 vs 1.0 being better or Graf's or anyone else's personal problems being no different than what Seles experienced, despite the wild and unfortunate nature of her terrible incident.
 
#299 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

cehowardrx7

I'll give you another example. They once asked Chris Evert "if someone had suddenly taken out Martina Navratilova, how many more majors do you think you would have won"?

You know Chrissies first impulse was to answer/give a number, then she immediately caught herself and said "Martina pushed her, made her work harder, KEPT HER IN THE GAME LONGER".

Evert felt, that if it wasn't for Martina, she would have actually RETIRED A LOT SOONER, cause they're would have been little to play for. But Evert admitted Martina made her work hard, and inspired her competitive juices.

Now who knows if that would have really been the case. How ever, I think it could have been the same the case that Seles having a longer career, may not had denied Graf as many Majors as some of us think (not including if Monica would have lasted that long at that level). It would/could have just made Steffi Graf play longer or get better, and she still may have had her 18-24 majors anyway.

And in Seles case (this is what people hate to hear), she wasn't seriously injured. Now, if you wanna say, "the stabbing effected her play", okay, fine. You can say that. On the other hand, if it was another player, I don't know if it would have made much difference in their performance. They would have just moved on (see Paul Pierce example). But everyone's different. And that's why some people make threads about Monica 2.0 vs 1.0 being better or Graf's or anyone else's personal problems being no different than what Seles experienced, despite the wild and unfortunate nature of her terrible incident.

That's the thing...you guys belittle the stabbing, but to me the worst part of it: Battles should be fought on the tennis court. Let Graf vs Seles do their thing...no, Parche had to go and ruin everything. Another German looney changing history, in this case tennis history.
 
#289 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I do agree had Martina not existed Chris would be the undisputed GOAT today. Not only did Martina deny her so many slams, but Martina's total and embarassingly one sided ownage of Evert for a few years at Martina's peak is the very reason nearly everyone ranks Evert below Graf, Martina, Serena, and even Court today. Basically Chris a wonderful champion is incredibly unlucky that Martina came along, more unlucky than anyone person with any one player.

Martina on the other hand is super lucky Chris existed and played so long. Chris hardly denied Martina any slams, probably only about 3 at most, and had Chris not existed the already super weak Martina era of 82-86 would have bar none the worst competition in history, Pam Shriver would have reached #2 much of that time, and people would mostly dismiss her dominance and success due to a non existent field until teenaged Graf finally came along and easily brushed Martina in her prime aside. However as it is now people say "and she faced Chris too" and gloss over the otherwise gloomy and pathetic beyond words top 10 and womens field of the Martina era, so Martina should be grateful beyond words Chris stayed in the game so long, as she is the one who helped elevated Martina's career and legacy in peoples eyes, while doing virtually no damage to it as she was prime Martina's pigeon.
 
#292 · (Edited)
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I do agree had Martina not existed Chris would be the undisputed GOAT today. Not only did Martina deny her so many slams, but Martina's total and embarassingly one sided ownage of Evert for a few years at Martina's peak is the very reason nearly everyone ranks Evert below Graf, Martina, Serena, and even Court today. Basically Chris a wonderful champion is incredibly unlucky that Martina came along, more unlucky than anyone person with any one player.

Martina on the other hand is super lucky Chris existed and played so long. Chris hardly denied Martina any slams, probably only about 3 at most, and had Chris not existed the already super weak Martina era of 82-86 would have bar none the worst competition in history, Pam Shriver would have reached #2 much of that time, and people would mostly dismiss her dominance and success due to a non existent field until teenaged Graf finally came along and easily brushed Martina in her prime aside. However as it is now people say "and she faced Chris too" and gloss over the otherwise gloomy and pathetic beyond words top 10 and womens field of the Martina era, so Martina should be grateful beyond words Chris stayed in the game so long, as she is the one who helped elevated Martina's career and legacy in peoples eyes, while doing virtually no damage to it as she was prime Martina's pigeon.
I to feel Chrissie was indisputably, one of the all time best tennis players ever. However, I also agree, that Chrissie getting her ass kicked, up and down the world by Nav's (once she got in shape, her mind and body together), made everyone forget Chrissie's dominant numbers, while only remembering Martina's dominant play and seemingly more dominant play over Evert.

The irony is, despite all those latter losses to Martina, Chrissie's all time numbers compare very favorably to Nav's anyway. That's how great Chrissie was.

Despite them taking turns in their periods of dominance,it was also due to the fact that both were specialist, and excelled in different areas (Chrissie slow, high bouncing, and Martina fast, low bouncing courts).

The major difference between Steff and Seles (compared to those two), was that Graf was an all court player and Seles was more a specialist. So ultimately, even if Seles would have won more Australians and French Opens (providing they both played a long time), Graf would have won her fair share as well. While on the other hand, Graf would have won a bunch of Wimby's, US Opens and YEC's, while Seles would have only scrapped up a few (especially with Wimby's), cause she was a much worse fast court player and could have lost to a bevy of other players not named Graf. That's the major difference.
 
#306 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Excelscior, one very important that you missed and I didn't mention. That is the MENTAL HARM that was done. We are both not doctors, and cannot rate the seriousness of the stab. However, we can in an unprofessional way, because are not professionals, at least I am not, imagine the mental harm that was done to Seles. The mental part of a player's tennis game is just as important as the physical game, if not more. Seles was not only physically harmed, she was mentally harmed as well.
 
#307 · (Edited)
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Excelscior, one very important that you missed and I didn't mention. That is the MENTAL HARM that was done. We are both not doctors, and cannot rate the seriousness of the stab. However, we can in an unprofessional way, because are not professionals, at least I am not, imagine the mental harm that was done to Seles. The mental part of a player's tennis game is just as important as the physical game, if not more. Seles was not only physically harmed, she was mentally harmed as well.
Agreed.

And that's why we can't overtly speculate or comment (and expect to be right or ever certain). :lol:

There could be 50 different reasons why Monica could have not performed the way she did after the Parche incident, that may or may not had to do anything with him. :confused:

On the other hand, it could have very well been the reason. And that's a personal make up, regarding how each person deals with and comes back from that type of adversity.
 
#324 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Steffi was amazing athlete for her time and she had one of the most beautiful styles in history. Amazingly consistent as well.
 
#325 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Graf is local.
 
#349 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Anabelcroft, with all the respect in the world, why don't you just drop it? Graf is "old news". Here slam count is "old news" too. It is what it is, tainted. Nobody even wants to hear about Graf anyway..Graf is old tainted history. We are talking about the present players. Can't compare them to players old. Competition is stiffer these days.

Please let it go! ;) No matter how many times you post and try to make Graf be this and that, it won't happen. You want records that are not tainted? Billy Jean King, Court, Evert, Martina, etc.. They have records that are not tainted..
 
#350 ·
Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Anabelcroft, with all the respect in the world, why don't you just drop it? Graf is "old news".
I see you still don't want to answer my question.That shows how powerless you are and now you even try to confuse me with changing the subject and begging me to drop it,just to be able to avoid the answer so that your public weakness can easily be forgotten... Lol

Why don't YOU drop it if you already avoid answering one simple question?

If she is "old news" and "history" why is she voted the greatest woman to have played tennis by the majority in 2012 at the Australian Open and by Tennis-magazine,also in 2012?
 
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