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SI: BEST EVER: Serena Gaining On Federer In Debate

92K views 2K replies 175 participants last post by  Dominic 
#1 · (Edited)
Serena RG triumph, the needle for best ever has kept moving and has now entered new territory.
She has earned a comparison to Federer in their race to achieve the honor in their respective "league"

This debate, which was unthinkable to non-Serena fan just a year ago, is now ripe in the public and among sport writers.

Serena Williams gaining on Federer in best-ever debate



After a win at Roland Garros, Serena Williams is now within six titles of Steffi Graf's record 22 majors.




"Best ever" arguments generally hit a roadblock in tennis, usually about the refined modern equipment that makes wooden rackets and gut strings so dramatically obsolete. So let's stay in the present and ask this question: Is Serena Williams challenging Roger Federer as the best player of this generation? And could she soon own that distinction all by herself?



It has reached the point where even the most cynical insiders view Williams with reverence, at once startled and blown away by her utter dominance on court. That's how it was with Federer at his best, a time when so many sporting legends -- from Rod Laver to Tiger Woods -- sat courtside to grasp the full measure of his greatness.



Recent memory tends to be the sharpest, focusing on Williams' 91-4 record over the past 14 months and another astounding performance from Rafael Nadal at the French Open. Federer appears to be in gradual retreat -- certainly no shock, by any reasonable standard -- while Williams might be playing the best tennis of her life. In that sense, these two 31-year-old players seem to be headed in opposite directions. But let's take a measured, long-view approach to the argument. I think a strong case could be made for either.



Breaking it down by categories:
The numbers. Before you start wondering if Nadal should be the man in this conversation, remember that between the 2003 Wimbledon and the 2010 Australian Open, Federer won 16 of the 27 majors. That's astounding, especially considering the ever-burgeoning globalization that has brought such depth to the men's tour. Federer is also working on a streak of 36 consecutive quarterfinals in the majors, and as colleague Jon Wertheim noted, only five other players even competed in all of those tournaments. Federer's numbers require a separate book, something to last through the ages, ideally crafted by fountain pen on seasoned parchment paper.



Williams can't match that brand of consistency, and, in fact, became known (often scorned) for missing tournaments over the years. Some felt she was too easily lured by distractions, but in retrospect, her multifaceted life kept her fresh and motivated. Her decisions were vital to her longevity. She has won each of the majors at least twice -- no other active player can make that claim, man or woman -- and with a total of 16, she looks like a cinch to pass Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova (18 each) and perhaps even make a run at Steffi Graf's 22.


The competition.
Scanning the list of Federer's final victims in majors over the years, names such as Lleyton Hewitt, Mark Philippoussis, Robin Soderling, Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez and Andy Roddick appear -- each an exceptional player, but falling short of the caliber Federer faces today in Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. Still, it's worth recalling Federer's absolute mastery in those days, fashioning a set of tools that would have dismantled anyone. Roddick's game fairly screamed "Wimbledon champion," yet he could never get past Federer. The purity of Andre Agassi's ball-striking was the stuff of legend, but I'll never forget his reaction after the 2005 U.S. Open final, when Federer won a tense third-set tiebreaker and then closed out Agassi with a 6-1 fourth set.



"There's nowhere to go," Agassi said. "Every shot you make has a sort of urgency to it. With other guys there's a safety zone, there's a way, even with Pete [Sampras]. But anything you do, Roger potentially has an answer for. He plays the game in a very special way. I haven't seen it before. It's crazy."
For Williams, the toughest challenges came early -- starting with the formidable Martina Hingis, outclassed by the 17-year-old Serena in the 1999 U.S. Open final. Serena had to deal with Jennifer Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Hingis, Justine Henin, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and her own sister Venus, each of whom held the No. 1 ranking and did so fiercely, as opposed to the flighty Dinara Safina, Jelena Jankovic Ana Ivanovic and Caroline Wozniacki in contemporary times.



While Federer confronts the frightening proposition of easing toward retirement against Nadal, Djokovic and maybe a half-dozen big hitters capable of taking him down at any time, Serena has no rivals, no worthy challengers. If she won the next four majors without losing a set, no one would be the slightest bit surprised.



Technique.
While everyone takes note of Serena's serve, universally acclaimed as the best ever, has any female player been so devastatingly effective with the two-handed backhand? Evert could match her for accuracy (particularly impressive in the wooden-racket days), but Serena's power is a modern-day marvel. She can be a bit erratic with the forehand, but seldom alarmingly so, and she has great feel around the net. Other players might be quicker around the court, but Serena has kept herself remarkably fit and agile. In short: She has no weakness.



Then there's Federer, and let's face it, he's a cut above everyone -- maybe ever. What Agassi, Laver, Sampras and Bjorn Borg (among others) have admired so greatly was Federer's elegance, grace and anticipation, especially on points absolutely crucial to his survival in a match. It all seemed so effortless for him, and I'm sure he would resent that past-tense reference. He still brings the A-game on his best days


Intangibles.

In terms of what to expect at any given time, they couldn't be more opposite. Federer was a force at every major, guaranteed, never losing his temper beyond a snarl or a growl, quite properly aloof as the master of all he surveyed. Williams could be hurt, dealing with personal issues, absent altogether or playing in an unbridled fury, to the point of inexcusable meltdowns at the U.S. Opens of 2009 (against Kim Clijsters) and 2011 (Samantha Stosur).



On the other hand, Serena's doubles record sends her even farther into the historical stratosphere. It could be argued that she and Venus formed the greatest women's team of all time, and they've got the Grand Slam trophies to prove it. Federer has a magical touch around the net and could have reached the heights (I'd love to see Federer and a chosen partner take on Bob and Mike Bryan), but he simply didn't care that much about doubles -- not enough to routinely pack it into his schedule.



Here, perhaps, is the most significant intangible of all: Serena grew up with a big sister who was making tremendous inroads in the sport, a worldwide role model and all-conquering player at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Serena always described herself as the more temperamental, unreliable sister, given to wild flights of fancy, all of which could have undermined her talent, not to mention the fact that she unconditionally loved Venus and savored the many years they lived together. For Serena to rise to such heights, in the sport so many felt would pass her by, is one of the great athletic feats of our time.



Conclusion.

Not a clear call. If pressed, I'd go with Federer's 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information. Serena just reached 16, and she played her first Grand Slam tournament 15 years ago. But it feels as if Serena has reached Federer's level, just in terms of how she is viewed by the other players. And by all accounts, there is much more to come. Let "best of their generation" have a men's and women's division, and see how it looks five years from now.


Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/te...er-federer-serena-williams-best-players-ever/
 
#449 ·
Just saying that Rafa still refers to Fed as the greatest player ever (even tho rafa whollops him into the ground)
 
#458 ·
Totally incomparable careers.

You can look at match wins, titles, weeks at number 1, h2h's etc. But when it comes down to it what people look at foremost is slams. Those 4 tournaments represent the most important 8 weeks of the tennis calender and receive worldwide media attention.

Federer's shotmaking and consistency was stunning and something the like men's tennis had never seen, yet Serenas re-emergence and longevity is awe inspiring. Its impossible to take one element from Rogers career, without finding something Serena has done to counter it, and vice-versa. Let them take their place amongst the tennis gods free from the bickering of mere peasants :worship:
 
#461 ·
I find it hilarious how blind people in this thread are being to the nuance.

Fed has not missed a slam since 2001(? IIRC), while Serena (because of injury) has missed 13 since 1999. She has PLAYED less matches than Fed has WON.

And for this myth about Serena not being "dedicated" to tennis, that's simply not true. She has PLAYED more in the past few years than early in her career, but that's because she was still in college/didn't want to burn herself out. Any time she MISSED on tour was because of injury. But to that end, she was never going to have 74-3 seasons (a la 2004-2007 Fed) early in her career, because she just never played that much.

If you look at W/L% for the years where she was at the top of her game, it's very similar to Fed's.

And all this talk about Fed's 23 straight major SFs:

Serena's longest streak of playing majors was USO 2006- W 2010
During that 12 major stretch, she won 4 of them, but struggled with SEVERAL injuries:
2006 - knee (and depression)
2007 - calf
2009 - knee
2010 - knee and foot

So, it's not like she was on the tour full-time (not missing any big events) and not getting good results, she was getting great results in spite of her inferior preparation. It's hard to get momentum when you get injured (practically) every 6 months.

Not to say that Fed's numbers aren't impressive, because they are, but you can't just blindly look at Serena's numbers and conclude she's less of a GOAT because her numbers don't match up. I mean, from 2004-2007, Fed won 11/16 majors. From 2004-2007 Serena PLAYED in 11/16 majors.
 
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#463 ·
From USO 2006 to WIM 2010, didn't she win six? AO 2007, USO 2008, and then AO/WIM in 2009 and 2010? Six out of 12?
 
#466 ·
Such different careers. Federer has been a consistantly phenomenal player season after season after season; Serena has always been just a part-time player. She does not have any passion for tennis like Federer. She has a passion for success and her own 'brand'.

Even if she ends her career with more slams than Federer (which I think is likely) she won't even come close to having the respect that Federer has.

Notice how much more respected Venus is even though she has less than half the slams of her duckling sister.
 
#470 ·
Ridiculous. Nobody respects Venus' tennis more than Serena's. Venus is respected for her struggles and triumphs off the court, maybe more than Serena. She's in her thirties and still playing tennis. For someone who apparently has no passion then she must be doing incredibly well!
 
#480 ·
Wooow Serena is so amazing that so many MTFers bothered to show up to defend Fed from her (which is needed). Can you imagine how hard someone like Serena would have dominated the ATP? Such mental toughness does not exist in the ATP (allthough Nadal comes close)

All praise Serena the G.O.A.T
 
#484 ·
Wooow Serena is so amazing that so many MTFers bothered to show up to defend Fed from her (which is needed). Can you imagine how hard someone like Serena would have dominated the ATP? Such mental toughness does not exist in the ATP (allthough Nadal comes close)

All praise Serena the G.O.A.T


Serena GOAT so far by fanboysm not by numbers :wavey:
 
#548 ·
You must have missed some of those Fed trolls that were in hear earlier.
 
#485 ·
Why has this thread not been closed yet? I will repeat what i said before. You cannot have an honest and objective discussion about this on this forum and MTF That is simply not possible. Some people overestimate and other underestimate or refuse to give dues. Close it.
 
#486 ·
Especially since the collective IQ on MTF is the same as Serena's slam count. :shrug:
 
#498 ·
Probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Roger is so far above any of the women's greats just for the simple fact that he's a male great. The men's game is above the women's because they're better, have to work harder and play more against harder opponents. Not to mention that Roger is the most talented player that's ever played the game. None of the men can hope to reach his level ever, never mind the women. Serena anywhere near his level? Don't make me laugh :lol:
 
#506 ·
Surely, had the article inculed any of the faves from your sig in it, you would've been ranting all over the place how good the comparision is and how everyone else that disagrees is wrong.
Could you please stop entering Serena's threads from now on, do yourself and us a favour and get your trolling ass out of here and try for instance supporting your faves in their threads, how about that huh?
 
#499 ·
Greatest of their generation is the discussion...for Fed this happen to mean that he's probably the GOAT, but that ISN'T the discussion.

Federer did his thing..at his peak he was the more dominant than Serena and more consistent. But he has some issues in his resume. He got dominated by his nearest rival, ( record in finals against Rafa is dreadful, even away from clay..is just 2-2). Something that never happened to Serena. At the rate Serena's going, this might be a moot point by year's end anyways, so..:lol:
 
#501 ·
Serena trails Henin in grand slam matches against Henin, so never say never..
Venus leads head to head vs Henin yet she is inferior to her in a lot of numbers in the all time list that probably leaves her behind in their comparisson. The same happens with Federer vs Nadal so far, but in a more dramatic fashion because of the slam wins.

PS. Federer is not 2/2 vs Nadal off clay, you only have to count 2 Wimbledons, Miami and YEC and he already owns 4 wins vs Nadal in finals.
 
#516 ·
Federer is greater than Serena.

I stick up for women's tennis but c'mon. Federer has had so many weeks at number one; so many slams won during seasons multiple times... I'm sure all his accomplishments I'm sure have already been listed in previous posts.

Plus his game is more appealing as well. :shrug:
 
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