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SI: BEST EVER: Serena Gaining On Federer In Debate

92K views 2K replies 175 participants last post by  Dominic 
#1 · (Edited)
Serena RG triumph, the needle for best ever has kept moving and has now entered new territory.
She has earned a comparison to Federer in their race to achieve the honor in their respective "league"

This debate, which was unthinkable to non-Serena fan just a year ago, is now ripe in the public and among sport writers.

Serena Williams gaining on Federer in best-ever debate



After a win at Roland Garros, Serena Williams is now within six titles of Steffi Graf's record 22 majors.




"Best ever" arguments generally hit a roadblock in tennis, usually about the refined modern equipment that makes wooden rackets and gut strings so dramatically obsolete. So let's stay in the present and ask this question: Is Serena Williams challenging Roger Federer as the best player of this generation? And could she soon own that distinction all by herself?



It has reached the point where even the most cynical insiders view Williams with reverence, at once startled and blown away by her utter dominance on court. That's how it was with Federer at his best, a time when so many sporting legends -- from Rod Laver to Tiger Woods -- sat courtside to grasp the full measure of his greatness.



Recent memory tends to be the sharpest, focusing on Williams' 91-4 record over the past 14 months and another astounding performance from Rafael Nadal at the French Open. Federer appears to be in gradual retreat -- certainly no shock, by any reasonable standard -- while Williams might be playing the best tennis of her life. In that sense, these two 31-year-old players seem to be headed in opposite directions. But let's take a measured, long-view approach to the argument. I think a strong case could be made for either.



Breaking it down by categories:
The numbers. Before you start wondering if Nadal should be the man in this conversation, remember that between the 2003 Wimbledon and the 2010 Australian Open, Federer won 16 of the 27 majors. That's astounding, especially considering the ever-burgeoning globalization that has brought such depth to the men's tour. Federer is also working on a streak of 36 consecutive quarterfinals in the majors, and as colleague Jon Wertheim noted, only five other players even competed in all of those tournaments. Federer's numbers require a separate book, something to last through the ages, ideally crafted by fountain pen on seasoned parchment paper.



Williams can't match that brand of consistency, and, in fact, became known (often scorned) for missing tournaments over the years. Some felt she was too easily lured by distractions, but in retrospect, her multifaceted life kept her fresh and motivated. Her decisions were vital to her longevity. She has won each of the majors at least twice -- no other active player can make that claim, man or woman -- and with a total of 16, she looks like a cinch to pass Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova (18 each) and perhaps even make a run at Steffi Graf's 22.


The competition.
Scanning the list of Federer's final victims in majors over the years, names such as Lleyton Hewitt, Mark Philippoussis, Robin Soderling, Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez and Andy Roddick appear -- each an exceptional player, but falling short of the caliber Federer faces today in Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. Still, it's worth recalling Federer's absolute mastery in those days, fashioning a set of tools that would have dismantled anyone. Roddick's game fairly screamed "Wimbledon champion," yet he could never get past Federer. The purity of Andre Agassi's ball-striking was the stuff of legend, but I'll never forget his reaction after the 2005 U.S. Open final, when Federer won a tense third-set tiebreaker and then closed out Agassi with a 6-1 fourth set.



"There's nowhere to go," Agassi said. "Every shot you make has a sort of urgency to it. With other guys there's a safety zone, there's a way, even with Pete [Sampras]. But anything you do, Roger potentially has an answer for. He plays the game in a very special way. I haven't seen it before. It's crazy."
For Williams, the toughest challenges came early -- starting with the formidable Martina Hingis, outclassed by the 17-year-old Serena in the 1999 U.S. Open final. Serena had to deal with Jennifer Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Hingis, Justine Henin, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and her own sister Venus, each of whom held the No. 1 ranking and did so fiercely, as opposed to the flighty Dinara Safina, Jelena Jankovic Ana Ivanovic and Caroline Wozniacki in contemporary times.



While Federer confronts the frightening proposition of easing toward retirement against Nadal, Djokovic and maybe a half-dozen big hitters capable of taking him down at any time, Serena has no rivals, no worthy challengers. If she won the next four majors without losing a set, no one would be the slightest bit surprised.



Technique.
While everyone takes note of Serena's serve, universally acclaimed as the best ever, has any female player been so devastatingly effective with the two-handed backhand? Evert could match her for accuracy (particularly impressive in the wooden-racket days), but Serena's power is a modern-day marvel. She can be a bit erratic with the forehand, but seldom alarmingly so, and she has great feel around the net. Other players might be quicker around the court, but Serena has kept herself remarkably fit and agile. In short: She has no weakness.



Then there's Federer, and let's face it, he's a cut above everyone -- maybe ever. What Agassi, Laver, Sampras and Bjorn Borg (among others) have admired so greatly was Federer's elegance, grace and anticipation, especially on points absolutely crucial to his survival in a match. It all seemed so effortless for him, and I'm sure he would resent that past-tense reference. He still brings the A-game on his best days


Intangibles.

In terms of what to expect at any given time, they couldn't be more opposite. Federer was a force at every major, guaranteed, never losing his temper beyond a snarl or a growl, quite properly aloof as the master of all he surveyed. Williams could be hurt, dealing with personal issues, absent altogether or playing in an unbridled fury, to the point of inexcusable meltdowns at the U.S. Opens of 2009 (against Kim Clijsters) and 2011 (Samantha Stosur).



On the other hand, Serena's doubles record sends her even farther into the historical stratosphere. It could be argued that she and Venus formed the greatest women's team of all time, and they've got the Grand Slam trophies to prove it. Federer has a magical touch around the net and could have reached the heights (I'd love to see Federer and a chosen partner take on Bob and Mike Bryan), but he simply didn't care that much about doubles -- not enough to routinely pack it into his schedule.



Here, perhaps, is the most significant intangible of all: Serena grew up with a big sister who was making tremendous inroads in the sport, a worldwide role model and all-conquering player at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Serena always described herself as the more temperamental, unreliable sister, given to wild flights of fancy, all of which could have undermined her talent, not to mention the fact that she unconditionally loved Venus and savored the many years they lived together. For Serena to rise to such heights, in the sport so many felt would pass her by, is one of the great athletic feats of our time.



Conclusion.

Not a clear call. If pressed, I'd go with Federer's 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information. Serena just reached 16, and she played her first Grand Slam tournament 15 years ago. But it feels as if Serena has reached Federer's level, just in terms of how she is viewed by the other players. And by all accounts, there is much more to come. Let "best of their generation" have a men's and women's division, and see how it looks five years from now.


Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/te...er-federer-serena-williams-best-players-ever/
 
#1,427 ·
I'm a bit confused.

Dominic, what is the broader point you are trying to make with this information about muscle definition and strength? I accept that the size of your muscles affects the amount of force you can apply to the ball, however I don't quite understand how that makes any difference to the debate about who is greater?

I'm sure you will have already posted it at some point in this thread, but reading it again is likely to make my head spin and my eyes bleed. So my apologies, but what point are you making?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App
 
#1,433 ·
Tennis isn't about bulky muscle.

Venus vs Serena, in sheer consistent power off the ground, as well as consistent power behind the first serve, Venus wins.

Ivanovic hits a big ball, and she's all skin and bone.

For power in tennis, it's more about technique than broadness of the muscles/muscle definition.
 
#1,429 ·
:lol:

I live for Dominic's posts in every, single thread involving the World's #1 player. Ya'll please go look in the NT thread about taunting. LOL!


Maybe this has been answered before, but hasn't Dominic been banned before?

Oh, by the way, Serena is the best...in...like...ever.
 
#1,436 ·
So does anybody know yet what exactly was Dominic's point about Serena weighing more than Fed? :unsure: :shrug:
 
#1,439 ·
So the fake kinesiologist/personal trainer actually tried to convince us that Serena (fastest serve speed = 128.6 mph/207.0 km/h) is stronger than Federer (fastest serve speed = 140 mph/225 km/h)? :haha:
 
#1,440 ·
Dumbinic strikes again, somehow makes an awful trollish thread....even worse.

Is it even trolling any more or is it just stupidity? Sad thing is I have him on ignore but merely entering this thread I am exposed to the stupid.
 
#1,448 ·
This thread. It's like an early Christmas present from TF
 
#1,472 ·
Dom, Dom, Dom...

Dude is freak'n NUTZoid, but he keeps me roll'n. :happy: :happy:

Keep it going guys, cuz my night is full of laughter right now. :lol:

Serena stronger than Federer...?
Serena bigger than Federer...?
Serena serving 140+..., if only she practiced harder...?
Serena's arms are bigger than Federer...?
Astrology is a science...?!!!

Geeyooot damn!! :lol:
 
#1,473 · (Edited)
Ok ppl it's fine to think that Federer is stronger than Serena because you're ignorant and sexist and aren't aware that muscles are responsible for strenght (atlthough stupid beyond belief) but to say that Serena is smaller than Federer's and that her arms are smaller is just plain denying reality. I posted a pic in this thread earlier showing Serena's arms are WAAAY bigger than Federer's it's not even close, her arms actually looked the same size as Nadal's.

RVD I knew you were senile but I did not know you were blind
 
#1,478 ·
Umm...yeah....
Serena is soooo much bigger than Federer :rolleyes:, as these pictures indicate (sarcasm off):






And please take note that Serena is neva without her Pumps (http://shoerazzi.com/celeb/serena-williams/) during those formal galas.
However, when they are both sporting tennis shoes is when the height difference and stature is most apparent.

Let the casual viewer decide for themselves.
And I'm sorry but Serena's arms are not bigger than Federer's.
 
#1,491 ·
Umm...yeah....
Serena is soooo much bigger than Federer :rolleyes:, as these pictures indicate (sarcasm off):




Great pictures RVD but I'm sure those who are invested in their false claims about Serena are not going to believe their own eyes here therefore they will rather stick with their false photoshopped pictures. This will also confirm to reasonable people that Dumby's ONLY purpose on this board is to disparage Serena by any means necessary. Evidently being a bigot is not enough he even has to resort to going against scientific facts of biology and physiology.:help: He got exposed for who he really is, so that is good.

BTW back in the 90s when Lindsay was much bigger than Serena was she also considered to be stronger than Federer and other males? Also she is taller and bigger than Serena therefore how come she wasn't able dominate Serena and Venus for that matter according to those who are claiming size is an "unfair" advantage in tennis.:rolleyes:
 
#1,479 ·
:lol: Hey RVD..by the looks of it even SHARAPOVA has bigger arms than Fed, not that Dominic would never go down that route to admitting that. :lol:
 
#1,505 ·
Sharapova's arms which are CLEARLY smaller than Serena's are about the same size as Federer's I already mentioned that earlier. What's your point?
:lol: Just stop it, you sound ridiculous! ..and why photoshop Serena to the foreground of the picture while leaving Federer in the background?
I didn't photoshop anything the pic was like that and many other pics have already been posted of the 2 of them side by side that show Serena's arms are MUCH bigger than Federer's and a similar size to Nadal's.
:lol: So you're saying Dominic is right, Federer is FIGURATIVELY becoming smaller than Serena. ;)
Federer is taller than Serena but every part of his body is smaller than hers except maybe waist. You need to have vison problems to not see that.
Federer have faster serve than Serena so your whole muscle argument turned out to be a failed dead end for you. Now what other lies will you come up with next? :lol:

And no such pseudoscience is offered at that university. Just another petty lie from you :wavey:
http://www.uqam.ca/
You are so unbelievably dumb, top serve speed is not directly related to muscle strenght :sobbing: Federer serves harder than Nadal, do you think he is physically stronger than Nadal? Seriously, I would get replies that make more sense and show more logic talking to a 5 year old child :sobbing:

When did I say UQAM offererd an astrology degree?!

 
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#1,509 ·
Will y'all please stop arguing with that fucking idiot?!
His daily bodily functions tax his neurons to maximum capacity, your words are not sinking in. He just said Serena's arms are of similar size to Nadal's. Just stop. :lol:
 
#1,517 ·
Will y'all please stop arguing with that fucking idiot?!
His daily bodily functions tax his neurons to maximum capacity, your words are not sinking in. He just said Serena's arms are of similar size to Nadal's. Just stop. :lol:
This is actually interesting. I mentioned few times that while Nadal was really big and muscular, his serve was the biggest weakness in his game. After he lost a considerable amount of muscle mass, his serve has significantly improved. Both Serena and Sam lost some muscles mass, but their serves stayed equally well. JJ bulked up in 2009, but she only got slower, her shots didn't become more powerful. So, how can one explain that while claiming that it's all about muscles and unfair advantage? Not to mention the cases of the players like Safarova, who are not very tall or muscular, but still have big shots and serves.
 
#1,522 ·
I'm curious to know how much muscle to fat ratio Dominic believes Serena's arms and legs have.
But I'm afraid to ask how he knows.

What I find funny is how Dominic believes a picture is a good indication of size comparison, when their positioning (perspective) is different.
 
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