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SI: BEST EVER: Serena Gaining On Federer In Debate

92K views 2K replies 175 participants last post by  Dominic 
#1 · (Edited)
Serena RG triumph, the needle for best ever has kept moving and has now entered new territory.
She has earned a comparison to Federer in their race to achieve the honor in their respective "league"

This debate, which was unthinkable to non-Serena fan just a year ago, is now ripe in the public and among sport writers.

Serena Williams gaining on Federer in best-ever debate



After a win at Roland Garros, Serena Williams is now within six titles of Steffi Graf's record 22 majors.




"Best ever" arguments generally hit a roadblock in tennis, usually about the refined modern equipment that makes wooden rackets and gut strings so dramatically obsolete. So let's stay in the present and ask this question: Is Serena Williams challenging Roger Federer as the best player of this generation? And could she soon own that distinction all by herself?



It has reached the point where even the most cynical insiders view Williams with reverence, at once startled and blown away by her utter dominance on court. That's how it was with Federer at his best, a time when so many sporting legends -- from Rod Laver to Tiger Woods -- sat courtside to grasp the full measure of his greatness.



Recent memory tends to be the sharpest, focusing on Williams' 91-4 record over the past 14 months and another astounding performance from Rafael Nadal at the French Open. Federer appears to be in gradual retreat -- certainly no shock, by any reasonable standard -- while Williams might be playing the best tennis of her life. In that sense, these two 31-year-old players seem to be headed in opposite directions. But let's take a measured, long-view approach to the argument. I think a strong case could be made for either.



Breaking it down by categories:
The numbers. Before you start wondering if Nadal should be the man in this conversation, remember that between the 2003 Wimbledon and the 2010 Australian Open, Federer won 16 of the 27 majors. That's astounding, especially considering the ever-burgeoning globalization that has brought such depth to the men's tour. Federer is also working on a streak of 36 consecutive quarterfinals in the majors, and as colleague Jon Wertheim noted, only five other players even competed in all of those tournaments. Federer's numbers require a separate book, something to last through the ages, ideally crafted by fountain pen on seasoned parchment paper.



Williams can't match that brand of consistency, and, in fact, became known (often scorned) for missing tournaments over the years. Some felt she was too easily lured by distractions, but in retrospect, her multifaceted life kept her fresh and motivated. Her decisions were vital to her longevity. She has won each of the majors at least twice -- no other active player can make that claim, man or woman -- and with a total of 16, she looks like a cinch to pass Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova (18 each) and perhaps even make a run at Steffi Graf's 22.


The competition.
Scanning the list of Federer's final victims in majors over the years, names such as Lleyton Hewitt, Mark Philippoussis, Robin Soderling, Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez and Andy Roddick appear -- each an exceptional player, but falling short of the caliber Federer faces today in Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. Still, it's worth recalling Federer's absolute mastery in those days, fashioning a set of tools that would have dismantled anyone. Roddick's game fairly screamed "Wimbledon champion," yet he could never get past Federer. The purity of Andre Agassi's ball-striking was the stuff of legend, but I'll never forget his reaction after the 2005 U.S. Open final, when Federer won a tense third-set tiebreaker and then closed out Agassi with a 6-1 fourth set.



"There's nowhere to go," Agassi said. "Every shot you make has a sort of urgency to it. With other guys there's a safety zone, there's a way, even with Pete [Sampras]. But anything you do, Roger potentially has an answer for. He plays the game in a very special way. I haven't seen it before. It's crazy."
For Williams, the toughest challenges came early -- starting with the formidable Martina Hingis, outclassed by the 17-year-old Serena in the 1999 U.S. Open final. Serena had to deal with Jennifer Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Hingis, Justine Henin, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and her own sister Venus, each of whom held the No. 1 ranking and did so fiercely, as opposed to the flighty Dinara Safina, Jelena Jankovic Ana Ivanovic and Caroline Wozniacki in contemporary times.



While Federer confronts the frightening proposition of easing toward retirement against Nadal, Djokovic and maybe a half-dozen big hitters capable of taking him down at any time, Serena has no rivals, no worthy challengers. If she won the next four majors without losing a set, no one would be the slightest bit surprised.



Technique.
While everyone takes note of Serena's serve, universally acclaimed as the best ever, has any female player been so devastatingly effective with the two-handed backhand? Evert could match her for accuracy (particularly impressive in the wooden-racket days), but Serena's power is a modern-day marvel. She can be a bit erratic with the forehand, but seldom alarmingly so, and she has great feel around the net. Other players might be quicker around the court, but Serena has kept herself remarkably fit and agile. In short: She has no weakness.



Then there's Federer, and let's face it, he's a cut above everyone -- maybe ever. What Agassi, Laver, Sampras and Bjorn Borg (among others) have admired so greatly was Federer's elegance, grace and anticipation, especially on points absolutely crucial to his survival in a match. It all seemed so effortless for him, and I'm sure he would resent that past-tense reference. He still brings the A-game on his best days


Intangibles.

In terms of what to expect at any given time, they couldn't be more opposite. Federer was a force at every major, guaranteed, never losing his temper beyond a snarl or a growl, quite properly aloof as the master of all he surveyed. Williams could be hurt, dealing with personal issues, absent altogether or playing in an unbridled fury, to the point of inexcusable meltdowns at the U.S. Opens of 2009 (against Kim Clijsters) and 2011 (Samantha Stosur).



On the other hand, Serena's doubles record sends her even farther into the historical stratosphere. It could be argued that she and Venus formed the greatest women's team of all time, and they've got the Grand Slam trophies to prove it. Federer has a magical touch around the net and could have reached the heights (I'd love to see Federer and a chosen partner take on Bob and Mike Bryan), but he simply didn't care that much about doubles -- not enough to routinely pack it into his schedule.



Here, perhaps, is the most significant intangible of all: Serena grew up with a big sister who was making tremendous inroads in the sport, a worldwide role model and all-conquering player at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Serena always described herself as the more temperamental, unreliable sister, given to wild flights of fancy, all of which could have undermined her talent, not to mention the fact that she unconditionally loved Venus and savored the many years they lived together. For Serena to rise to such heights, in the sport so many felt would pass her by, is one of the great athletic feats of our time.



Conclusion.

Not a clear call. If pressed, I'd go with Federer's 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information. Serena just reached 16, and she played her first Grand Slam tournament 15 years ago. But it feels as if Serena has reached Federer's level, just in terms of how she is viewed by the other players. And by all accounts, there is much more to come. Let "best of their generation" have a men's and women's division, and see how it looks five years from now.


Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/te...er-federer-serena-williams-best-players-ever/
 
#1,257 ·
If we are going to compare we should look at who is the best of their generation.Federer has a losing head to head against Murray and Nadal. Meanwhile Serena has a winning h2h against every active grand slam winner. Maria Vika Venus Schiavone Kvitova Stosur. Not to mention the retired future HOF if not current,Davenport Hingis Capriarti Seles Henin Clijsters. Equal with Graf. Meanwhile Nadal only has a losing h2h against Davydenko. There is extreme doubt about whether or not Roger is the greatest of his generation. However that doubt is non existent for Serena.
 
#1,264 ·
With the logic being used by some here:
Leon Spinks



Statistics

Real name Leon Spinks
Nickname(s) "Neon" Leon
Rated at Heavyweight
Height 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m)
Reach 76 in (193 cm)
Nationality American
Born July 11, 1953 (age 60)
St. Louis, Missouri, United States
Stance Orthodox

Boxing record

Total fights 46
Wins 26
Wins by KO 14
Losses 17
Draws 3

Is superior to:
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.



Statistics

Real name Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Nickname(s) Pretty Boy
Money
Rated at Super featherweight (130 lb)
Lightweight (135 lb)
Light welterweight (140 lb)
Welterweight (147 lb)
Light middleweight (154 lb)
Height 5 ft 8 in (1.73 m)
Reach 72 in (183 cm)
Nationality American
Born February 24, 1977 (age 36)
Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.
Stance Orthodox

Boxing record

Total fights 45
Wins 45
Wins by KO 26
Losses 0
Draws 0
No contests 0
Medal record
Olympic Games Bronze 1996 Atlanta Featherweight

Because Mayweather never fought as a heavyweight. :help:
 
#1,275 ·
:lol: Dominic...in what universe is Serena stronger than Fed AND Nadal too? :spit: So Nadal/Feds are whimps then?
 
#1,286 ·
Wow, some of you have now gone to the extent of denying the anatomy and physiology of females and males:rolleyes:

Anyway to demonstrate that hitting hard and a great serve doesn't make a great tennis player is proven on the ATP. Nadal doesn't hit the hardest, serve the hardest yet he is able to dominate the top 30 on the ATP including the "great" Federer therefore there must be additional factors that contribute to a successful tennis career.

Simply, Serena has far more than just a great serve and hitting hard and more people are recognizing that and giving her credit for it. She has a complete game and that is why she dominates the competition and haters will have to recognize this fact as she continues to add to the history books.
 
#1,306 ·
Soooo Serena is stronger than Federer? And Sam is stronger than DelPo?! :spit:
All these flop ass theories :haha:
OMG you guys are saddening, the fact that muscle is muscle and that it's basically ,made of 2 proteins called actin and myosin whether it's on a guy or a girl is not a theory, it is biological FACT, open a damn book or refrain from talking about it, this is VERY basic info. Serena's arms and legs are much bigger than his and are almost all muscle, so yes she is stronger tha him.
Please give back your KINES degree.:facepalm: Men are biologically stronger than women even when they are smaller because of many biological factors, testosterone being but one of them. A man's muscle is much more sinewy than a woman's, therefore, a man's muscle size can be smaller yet he will still be stronger.
Again someone else who has absolutely zero clue what they're talking about, if you said something like that in a kinesiology class you'd be laughed at and kicked out of the program. Men are not BIOLOGICALLY stronger than women, men USUALLY have more muscle mass than women which makes them stronger. You're making a nonesixtent link in your head: men = stronger when the actual link is more muscle mass = stronger.

Yes men produce more testosterone which is an anabolic hormone that will help build muscle but it is DEFINITELY not the only factor that's involved in building muscle. And muscle is not more sinewy by default in men than in women, muscle density is different for each individual and it varies very little unless you're a a pro power lifter or something.

The biological factors that you are talking about probably include the fact that women USUALLY have higher bodyfat % than men (mostly because of testosterone again), the key word is usually and we are not talking about usually here we are talking about Serena Williams and Roger Federer. Serena does have higher bodyfat % than him but not by much and it's only because of her ass and breasts, the rest of her is all muscle.
Dominic is dumb as rocks. lol.

Having a penis does influence the amount of testosterone in the body compared to women. Of course it doesn't mean every guy is gonna be stronger than every female, but it definitely does help you out on the physical strength aspect. Serena is not stronger than Federer/Nadal. Also, hitting the ball hard doesn't mean you're 'stronger' than someone who doesn't. If anything, it's about technique and timing.
Daniel you're trying to be a smart ass but every single sentence in that post is false. Having a penis DOES NOT influence the amount of testosterone in the body, it's having testicles that does, and it's not the only factor that influences it. Muscle mass and strenght are almost 100% directly linked. If you do a program in the gym and its only goal is to increase strenght, the fast twitched fibers of your muscle WILL end up increasing in size making your muscle bigger. So, if you see the bicep of a woman and it's much bigger than the bicep of a guy, well guess what, her bicep can lift more than his.

Technique and timing definitely helps in hitting hard but it's overrated, I know big guys who have no idea how to hit a tennis ball and they can hit very hard.
:spit: so you're saying that Serena weights more than 88kg?! :unsure: You know for a woman that's obese, right? :eek:
Come on, Domi...where did you buy that degree, on ebay? :facepalm: :lol:
OMG Federer is said to weight 88 kg? I'm a personal trainer and you can point to me any random person and I can tell you their height and weight with a very small margin for error and there is no way in hell Federer is 88 kg. He seems under 80.

But seriously all of you guys, you are obviously unbelievably ignorant about this topic so it's useless trying to inject some knowledge into your biased brains, you would need 40 hour classes to know how the human body works and what muscle is made of to actually understand what I'm saying, which I consider extremely basic stuff, so keep thinking a skinny man is stronger than Serena just because he has a dick :facepalm:
 
#1,297 ·
Dominic is dumb as rocks. lol.

Having a penis does influence the amount of testosterone in the body compared to women. Of course it doesn't mean every guy is gonna be stronger than every female, but it definitely does help you out on the physical strength aspect. Serena is not stronger than Federer/Nadal. Also, hitting the ball hard doesn't mean you're 'stronger' than someone who doesn't. If anything, it's about technique and timing.
 
#1,302 ·
BYE @ these false allegations coming from Domi and his crackpot theories. I have a degree in Molecular Biology and I can tell you that you haven't payed attention during your freshman biology class if you seriously believe Serena is stronger than Fed because her muscles "look" bigger :lol:
 
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#1,307 ·
Her muscles don't look bigger, they ARE bigger.
And this caps it off. Using a photoshop picture to compare muscle sizes...let me get out of this thread :hysteric:
Yes you're right, they photoshopped her to make her muscles appear bigger than Fed's and as big as Nadal's :haha:

Look at any other photo of them.
 
#1,305 ·
You are ignorant about the human body, read above, strenght and muscle mass are almost 100% correlated, and it's not like Serena's arms are made of a lot of fat, they're very lean.
Where did you get your degree?
 
#1,309 ·
Ok well if you wanna know more about muscle and body composition read it, otherwise you can stay dumb and never try to comment about the topic again.
 
#1,315 ·
Dom'.

You're being foolish, and if you HONESTLY believe that an outward appearance of muscle mass always equates to proportional strength, you should demand a refund from wherever you supposedly received your degree.

Anybody who's played organized sports at a high level - for myself it was college football (American football) - knows that often times the guys on the team that LOOK the strongest ARE NOT the strongest.

When I played, we had a few lineman and a linebacker that looked like MONSTERS, yet the STRONGEST guy on the team was a defensive back. This case was true on almost every team in organized sports I've been on, and I'm quite certain I'm not the only one with experiences like that. Muscle mass doesn't always equate to proportional strength. The difference in physiology/body chemistry between a man and a woman only makes this scenario even MORE likely when comparing the two.
 
#1,322 ·
I dunno why Federer's physical advantages come into it. Serena has many physical advantages over the little skinny white girls on the WTA, nobody says they are invalid to judging her as a tennis player.

Yes Federer has physical advantages over Serena. So? At the end of the day he is a better tennis player than she is.
 
#1,346 ·
I dunno why Federer's physical advantages come into it. Serena has many physical advantages over the little skinny white girls on the WTA, nobody says they are invalid to judging her as a tennis player.

Yes Federer has physical advantages over Serena. So? At the end of the day he is a better tennis player than she is.
And NOW you finally make plain the lens through which you see Serena and evaluate her talent. Very telling.
 
#1,324 ·
Suddenly this debate has evolved into a male vs female physiology war.
A far cry from the article's original premise of a statistical comparison between the WTA & ATP's current GOATS.
 
#1,339 · (Edited)
Of course they can't stay on topic because it is impossible to win the argument based on the premise of the OP.
Not that they did not try, they did but all their arguments have been beaten back or debunked.

You are even beginning to see dissension in their rank, as desperation has created foolish and short sighted reasoning.

Earlier, one poster vowed not to change his/her mind if Serena were win 30 Grand Slams and Federer were to retire at his current count of 17.
That is the madness that has overtaken certain posters.

The other fascinating development I have witnessed here is how easily some posters are willing to throw their own faves under the bus with eagerness, in order to make the argument that Serena's opposition is non-existent, hence her accomplishments are shallow.

To listen to them, they have been wasting their time cheering on the other WTA players.
All that passion they had shown for certain players for years was just an act, they knew all along that the WTA had only one player.
Serena has won grand slams in 3 decades, the opposion in that time span consisted of impostors.
 
#1,330 ·
The main sex organ produced by women is estrogen, which tends to promote storage of fat rather than its breakdown. On the other hand, the main sex hormone in men is testosterone, produced by the testicles, which tends to promote the formation of muscle mass. This is the most basic information and you still fail to understand how gender does in fact influence the level of sex hormones within an individual. :lol:

Oh, I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass, you're just stupid.
 
#1,331 ·
Yes, women generally have a higher body fat %. Female athletes as well. The body fat % has nothing to do with how big someone's arm is. I have no evidence, as none of us do, but I would be not surprised at all to find out that Errani has a lower body fat % than Serena, no matter how muscular Serena seems to be. Serena has a typical hourglass body type. According to conventional standards, it seems to be a very feminine body type, that also includes a high body fat %. Soooo, muscular arms don't compensate for that.
 
#1,340 ·
I think people are correlating strength with power too much here. Take for example Venus vs Serena. Rena is WAY stronger and heavier than Vee, yet on serve they hit about the same speeds maxxed out. Serena relies on leg drive whilst Vee uses her height and a whip like technique to hit those high speeds.

I hate to get all technical coz it usually ends badly around here, but men usually have faster-twitch muscle fibres compared to women, which allows for more explosive power. I have little trouble believing Rena is as strong or stronger than Fed, but this does not mean she can hit harder. In terms of weight Fed looks lighter than his listed weight and Serena looks heavier. (Considering her height and build there is no way she is 150 lbs).
 
#1,345 ·
OMG a Serena fan that doesn't deny biological FACTS to try to make a point, very refreshing :worship:

Although fast twitch fiber is a type of fiber that does get bigger when it is stressed and adapts
 
#1,352 ·
:sobbing: OMG please tell me you're kidding, I've been over this TIME AND TIME AGAIN in this very thread. Changes that men go through during puberty make them MORE LIKELY to be stronger than women because they're more likely to build more muscle mass.. Not every single man has more muscle mass than every single woman. Do you realize that? And the size of someone's bone has nothing to do with muscle power so I don't even know why he brought that up.

Not only do I find you mind numbingly stupid and ignorant but I also find you sexist.. you need to go read the the post I reply to his earlier and the link I posted also. But since you're a Serena fan and all you want is to disagree with me, No amount of proof, biological facts, logical explication or visual aid will help you. :eek:
 
#1,356 · (Edited)
So...I don't get the debate. Nadal is more muscular than Federer as well and could surpass him in the slam department with an argument for GOAT. Muscularity has nothing to do with it. Technique, athleticism, mental strength in terms of intangibles, and then we have statistics, head-to-head, slams won, etc. Because Serena is more muscular doesn't mean she hits the ball harder than the opposition. Dementieva hits the ball just as big if not bigger than Serena, has just as big forearms (not biceps) and has a gymnast's build overall. Davenport, Pierce, Venus, hell even Sharapova match her power Henin, Clijsters, Venus, Capriati, Dementieva matched her in both aspects. Greater upper body musculature (biceps, triceps, etc) doesn't correlate to greater power in tennis. Now in terms her lower half core, thighs, glutes, Serena makes excellent use of these aspects in her shot. Unlike Maria or Elena, who have genetically "live" arms and generate much of there power from the elasticity of the bicep tendon (to the detriment of Sharapova given her shoulder injuries), Serena's ground strokes are very ergonomically efficient. Early preparation, great use of her core, generous knee bend in "sitting" position and then smoothly exploding into the shot are where she gets power from.

Either way Federer is not only less muscular than Serena, but also his greatest rival who he often loses to. I'm not sure how having less muscle than Serena gives him an advantage in this debate. Also let's not forget Serena is extremely dexterous given her penchant for splits will defending shots or hitting passes. I think eyeballing physique really doesn't lend to the whole picture.
 
#1,364 ·
Either way Federer is not only less muscular than Serena, but also his greatest rival who he often loses to. I'm not sure how having less muscle than Serena gives him an advantage in this debate. Also let's not forget Serena is extremely dexterous given her penchant for splits will defending shots or hitting passes. I think a eyeballing of physic really doesn't lend to the whole picture.
You haven't followed :lol: The Serena fans are trying to convince ppl that Federer has more muscle than Serena and weights a lot more than her... I know ridiculous, I guess they didn't take into consideration that most of us are not blind.
 
#1,360 ·
Serena has a supremely athletic build compared to most women. I'm happy to admit that and I don't see how that detracts from her accomplishments in any way. She has combined this natural ability with commitment and determination to the sport of tennis and the results are spectacular.

Being physically gifted is no guarantee of success however. Sharapova is roughly 10" taller than the average woman, a clear serving advantage, yet how often does she manage to double fault?
 
#1,385 ·
Sam beat Serena Williams in a GS final and is considered one of the best doubles players. :shrug:

Ivanovic's GS was charity from the Justine Henin Retirement Foundation as another poster put it. :lol:

Ivanovic has had the better career so far in singles, but Sam only needs to reach one more GS Final for her to move up ahead IMO.
 
#1,393 ·
#1,391 ·
Men and women's tennis greats have never been compared before and should never be, so why now? Silly and irrelevant debate. Is Fed shaking in his boots because Serena's about to pass him, or is it because Nadal has a chance to catch him? If you can answer this question, then end of discussion.
 
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