Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6 (6) - Page 32 - TennisForum.com
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 06:10 AM   #466
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Originally Posted by tkutsaar View Post
There can be no debate that Serena should have won the tenth point in the third set tiebreaker and thus be up 6-4 enjoying the benefit of two match points. In actual case although she served a DF on the next point she did win the subsequent point and thus the match would have been hers.

On that tenth point Serena had an absolute total open court to strike a winner which every player regularly on tour would be expected to have accomplished. So this UE was truly a mental error; no exceptional skill was required to have executed the winner properly. So how do you account for this mental error committed by arguably one of the finest players of all time? I do not accept the woeful excuse that she was not playing 100% and that she could have played better.

In my view she was playing as exceptionally well in this match; as well as can be reasonably expected. The first set was as dominant a set as can be played by an elite player against an equivalent elite player. Vika is no scrub as her No 2 ranking would suggest but she seemed very ordinary in succumbing to the Serena juggernaut in that first set. Then there was the remarkable marathon sixth game in the second set; some over eighteen minutes in duration where Serena gamely held on surviving some seven break points to finally hold serve. That was not an example of a player playing poorly; but instead was an example of a player prevailing against a very strong opponent.

No the elephant in the room is Father Time. Serena will be 32 years of age on Sept 26 and although her technical physical skills are still intact she is now much more susceptible to fatigue and exhaustion that will be her undoing in close matches. In her Wimbledon loss to Sabine, I also discerned an UE which led to her first loss of serve in that match. That UE also I believe could have been attributed to this mental fatigue which I suggest Serena has now to contend with during the remainder of her career.
Serena played one of the most exhausting claycourt seasons ever where she didn't even lose a match. You sound like Serena is making it a habit in losing matches due to physical and mental fatigue. She will be fine in New York.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 06:24 AM   #467
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

When it's difficult for Serena to break, means that she needs a break from tennis.

She was all over the place in this match
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 06:41 AM   #468
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Serena played one of the most exhausting claycourt seasons ever where she didn't even lose a match. You sound like Serena is making it a habit in losing matches due to physical and mental fatigue. She will be fine in New York.
I truly believe you’ve missed my point. There is no denying Serena is one of the greatest player of all times and has been the dominant player enjoying hegemony over women’s tennis since Steffi. However there is an undeniable fact as one ages one’s skills erodes and one cannot win forever. All I’m saying is that her loss to Sabine at Wimbledon and her loss to Vika in Cincinnati can be attributed to mental errors that come with the territory of her age. She would not have lost those matches in her prime. I don’t deny that she may still win the upcoming USO but that is only because her physical talents and skill are still good enough to compensate for the erosion of her mental stamina.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 09:44 AM   #469
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Originally Posted by tkutsaar View Post
There can be no debate that Serena should have won the tenth point in the third set tiebreaker and thus be up 6-4 enjoying the benefit of two match points. In actual case although she served a DF on the next point she did win the subsequent point and thus the match would have been hers.

On that tenth point Serena had an absolute total open court to strike a winner which every player regularly on tour would be expected to have accomplished. So this UE was truly a mental error; no exceptional skill was required to have executed the winner properly. So how do you account for this mental error committed by arguably one of the finest players of all time?
To call it an unforced error is exaggerated. Vika made pressure with a strong forehand, Serena should have kept a perfect control of that ball but just hit a little too hard... You could see she was crazy about losing that perfect control. That's exactly what sums the match up all things reckoned: Vika made Rena lose control by agressive play. But it's only my view of the match, there can be several ones.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #470
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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She would not have lost those matches in her prime.
I'm not so sure of that. She was certainly more young several years ago, so probably more resilient, but could be less experienced and masterful as well.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 10:13 AM   #471
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Originally Posted by tkutsaar View Post
There can be no debate that Serena should have won the tenth point in the third set tiebreaker and thus be up 6-4 enjoying the benefit of two match points. In actual case although she served a DF on the next point she did win the subsequent point and thus the match would have been hers.

On that tenth point Serena had an absolute total open court to strike a winner which every player regularly on tour would be expected to have accomplished. So this UE was truly a mental error; no exceptional skill was required to have executed the winner properly. So how do you account for this mental error committed by arguably one of the finest players of all time? I do not accept the woeful excuse that she was not playing 100% and that she could have played better.

In my view she was playing as exceptionally well in this match; as well as can be reasonably expected. The first set was as dominant a set as can be played by an elite player against an equivalent elite player. Vika is no scrub as her No 2 ranking would suggest but she seemed very ordinary in succumbing to the Serena juggernaut in that first set. Then there was the remarkable marathon sixth game in the second set; some over eighteen minutes in duration where Serena gamely held on surviving some seven break points to finally hold serve. That was not an example of a player playing poorly; but instead was an example of a player prevailing against a very strong opponent.

No the elephant in the room is Father Time. Serena will be 32 years of age on Sept 26 and although her technical physical skills are still intact she is now much more susceptible to fatigue and exhaustion that will be her undoing in close matches. In her Wimbledon loss to Sabine, I also discerned an UE which led to her first loss of serve in that match. That UE also I believe could have been attributed to this mental fatigue which I suggest Serena has now to contend with during the remainder of her career.
Azarenka had no business losing this game.Serena survived cause Vika was brainfarting right and left and unable to kill it (like often when she has chances vs Serena), not cause she played brilliantly to save all these BP and hold.

Serena is tired (mostly mentally)and it was obvious in the whole last 2 sets (and no she was not playing "exceptionnally well" at all ), but I don't think it's really due to her age.It's just that she has never been used to play as much as she did this year.It was obviously a tactical move from Mouratoglou and her, and it worked cause she found a new rythm, won a lot of events, achieved her goal of a new FO title and has the #1 secured for quite some time, but she is starting to pay the price.

And frankly, as strong as she is, it's unrealistic to think Serena can win every single important point in every single match.She was lucky in the last USO final.This time Vika didn't fold like in a cheap tent at the very end and took it from her.Looking at their matches in the past, it was bound to happen at one point
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #472
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6



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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #473
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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I see your point, but Vika is not the first player to read Serena's serves well, Lisicki or Radwanska could read them well previously, too, which is still an important point, though I really believe that when Rena serves her best, you can do nothing, but I don't expect Rena to serve at 100% always.

I understand, but Serena did have a good serving day. She served great in the first set too, but in the second set Vika started picking up on where she was going to serve and she was ready for those serves and she was returning those serves. Just because Vika was getting them back doesn't mean she was not serving well. It just means the opponent was responding well. Nole served well when he played Isner, but Isner was reading the serve and returning it well. None of the commentators was saying that he wasn't serving well; they talked about Isner returning well. I might be wrong but sometimes I think you guys interpret Serena only having a good service day if no one can return the serve. Her motion and placement was no different that what it was before. The only difference is that Vika picked up on it where others normally don't pick up on it. Even Kutzy picked upon Serena's serve, she just couldn't serve herself because of her abdominal problem.

When Serena plays an opponent who has equal talents and skills, you don't expect her to make all of her serves like she would if she was playing someone like Sarah. Lisicki was reading her serve too, but that doesn't mean Serena wasn't serving well, it just means she was serving well and the opponent was returning well. Aggie has good serving days against Serena, but you give Serena the praise of returning deep into the corners or hitting the winners. It's no difference when it happens to Serena. Vika started serving well, but Serena was returning her serves too, but that doesn't mean Vika didn't serve well either. It can't be these double standards when it's Serena and you have to accept that. Serena served the same with with Justine, Kimmy, Jennifer and others, they just was QUICK enough to get the serves back. These players today are not quick enough to get the serve back so therefore, the commentators have to say that her serve can't be returned. And then when she's serving well and her opponent gets a read on the serve you guys think she had a bad serving day, and that wasn't the case. How many times did you hear Patrick and MJF state that Vika was reading Serena serve.

Reading her serve PRESSURED SERENA TO GO FOR MORE and she caused the error. She literally tired Serena out by returning the serves because she prevent the aces that Serena is so use to getting. It doesn't mean Serena wasn't hitting her spots, it just means she was hitting them and Vika was ready for them.


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Where I've seen Rena won the first set was in the rallies, she was placing her shots perfectly, on the left or on the right, long or short, and most of the time Vika was done. At some point it was just a matter of who was driving the rally first, and Vika was taking more risks to accelerate, whereas Rena with her natural power could just control and place the balls to keep Vika away from them. I felt she was the better player because she was showing more easiness to win these rallies. Somehow, I think Vika took the advantage in the second set by being more constantly agressive than Serena. She probably had more energy, too, while Serena was trying to keep control of the match. And she actually had that control, it was really, really close. At that game the winner is more often the one who attacks. In that match Vika was the most agressive one. And she was right to think she could win it, no question about it, I'm the first to say that nobody is unbeatable.

You're right she was winning the service points because Vika wasn't reading them. And even on Vika's serve she was putting so many double faults in that it was a joke. But Serena got too comfortable hitting those same shots in those same spots and she believed that Vika's serve would continue to be riddled with double faults and into the net. But Vika began to settle down and she started accelerating her swing and going for her shots and they started connecting, and then she started picking up on Serena's service pattern and she was ready for those shots that was winners in the first set. Vika's really got into a groove and she threw Serena off because Serena realized that she was going to have to run on just about every point to win the game. She got such a read on Serena's serve that she forced Serena to have to serve for almost 20 minutes just to win one game. I don't think anybody would have ever imagined that Serena would have had to take 20 minutes just to win one game. Were talking about the woman who is known for winning an entire set with aces in 20 minutes. That's was crazy, but it was a testament to how well Vika was returning. You just have to give the girl credit for what she did. Does that mean she'll do it the next time? No, it just means she did that time.




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You could notice Serena meaning something with her hands often, a matter of saying "keep it clean, keep control, stay cool". Serena is at a such level of the game that it's not about being the most agressive anymore, but the most masterful. She's the head of her power, she controls and drives it. That's what impressed me the most between both players. And it's not the first time, either the last, that the loser of a match has been impressing me more...
I respect your dedication and commitment to your favorite player. And Serena is no more stronger than Vika, it's just that she has perfected her serve whereas Vika's serve continues to be a liability for her. Yes Vika got her serve together in the 2nd and 3rd sets, but she hasn't perfected it to the point that we can be confident that she'll be able to repeat what she did against Serena should they meet the next time. I do suggest Vika work on her game. But Serena's power off the ground is actually less than Vika's but it's not seen that much because her serve is her advantage. But when that serve is neutralized and all things are equal meaning the opponents serve is working, then that means the game will be won on the baseline and at the net. And Vika is better than Serena off the ground and at net.

Look at what pea brain-crying Lisicki did. Her serve is big as Serena's and for once she approached the match with a more mature attitude. And Lisicki out served and out slugged Serena from the same baseline on that one day. But her problem is between the ears. She is too mentally fragile and needs to see a sports psychologist to help her deal with all of these damn crying spells she has on the court. I've never seen anything like that before. A player with a serve as big as hers should not be crying like a baby.

And I get that the loser/Serena impressed you more, I wouldn't expect you to think otherwise. But in the same like token, the Vika fans are impressed more by the winner/Vika. That's just a personal opinion and preference and everybody has one.

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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #474
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

Serena wasn't mentally fatigued because she did not entered the match mentally fatigued. Her fans keep trying to make it like she was soooo tired and that's why she lost.

I'm almost 1000000000% sure that her fans didn't think she was "mentally fatigued" when she won the first set in less than 30 minutes All of her fans thought it was going to be a normal day at the office with her winning the second set with a score of like 6-2 or 6-1.

It's not until Vika upped her game to match Serena's game that they are saying Serena was too mentally fatigued to get the win. Yeah right. She had to face an opponent who started matching her serve, her return game, and her ground game and her net game, and her opponent eeked out the win by playing a few crucial points better.

The Serena fans want to say that Serena lost because she was too mentally exhausted, instead of giving Vika the credit for upping her game and her mentally attitude to go the distance with Serena and prevail.

Vika won because she "upped her game and her mental attitude". Even when Serena had match point in the tiebreak, you could never tell that Vika was down because she was determined not to lose.

When Serena comes back from a deficit and wins the match, oh boy do the Serena fans talk about her being mentally strong to overcome her opponent and win. Even if Serena plays shitty in the first set like Vika did, she's still given the credit of the comback. Well that's what Vika did to Serena.

Vika must be given the credit for the win and she didn't win because Serena was "mentally fatigued". She won because she hit the right shots and forced Serena to error. That's why she won.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #475
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Serena wasn't mentally fatigued because she did not entered the match mentally fatigued. Her fans keep trying to make it like she was soooo tired and that's why she lost.

I'm almost 1000000000% sure that her fans didn't think she was "mentally fatigued" when she won the first set in less than 30 minutes All of her fans thought it was going to be a normal day at the office with her winning the second set with a score of like 6-2 or 6-1.

It's not until Vika upped her game to match Serena's game that they are saying Serena was too mentally fatigued to get the win. Yeah right. She had to face an opponent who started matching her serve, her return game, and her ground game and her net game, and her opponent eeked out the win by playing a few crucial points better.

The Serena fans want to say that Serena lost because she was too mentally exhausted, instead of giving Vika the credit for upping her game and her mentally attitude to go the distance with Serena and prevail.

Vika won because she "upped her game and her mental attitude". Even when Serena had match point in the tiebreak, you could never tell that Vika was down because she was determined not to lose.

When Serena comes back from a deficit and wins the match, oh boy do the Serena fans talk about her being mentally strong to overcome her opponent and win. Even if Serena plays shitty in the first set like Vika did, she's still given the credit of the comback. Well that's what Vika did to Serena.

Vika must be given the credit for the win and she didn't win because Serena was "mentally fatigued". She won because she hit the right shots and forced Serena to error. That's why she won.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #476
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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To call it an unforced error is exaggerated. Vika made pressure with a strong forehand, Serena should have kept a perfect control of that ball but just hit a little too hard... You could see she was crazy about losing that perfect control. That's exactly what sums the match up all things reckoned: Vika made Rena lose control by agressive play. But it's only my view of the match, there can be several ones.
But you're right. Vika did make Serena lose control on the points that mattered with her aggressive play. Serena is not use to having to fight for every point like that. If she was going to win she was going to have to endure those back-to-back rallies from the baseline.

Even that ball that Serena hit out at a crucial moment in the last few games was a forced error from Vika. Serena hit a perfect angle that she was shocked that Vika got to. Vika hustled and got to and she placed it deep in the righthand corner next to the line and Serena had to hit the ball from way in the back of the court and when she hit that ball, Serena WAS OFF BALANCE and DIDN'T HAVE HER FOOTING, and that made her have to go for more and it went out.

It wasn't that Serena was trying to hit the ball it, she lost the point because she WASN'T READY for Vika to get the ball back and she didn't have time to properly set up for the shot and it went long. Serena was on the right side of the court when she hit that angle and she had to run back to the backside of the left hand side of the court to get to that ball and she was planted right and she hit it long.

You are not wrong in your statement. It's just that some of her fans keep going off on the deep end because she lost the ground game, and they are coming up with every excuse in the book other than giving Vika her props for outlasting Serena. It's like they can't accept her loss and move on.

I'm like get a grip, the girl lost but it's not that deep. Serena doesn't even know or care about any of them and they are having a hard time accepting this loss to Vika. None of these athletes know or care about us, and we can't lose it when they lose. Hell she lost but she got paid more than most of us make in a year on our jobs, so hell no I don't feel sorry for Serena Jameka Williams one bit.

I'd love to lose and make that kind of money
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #477
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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[size="2"][color="Purple"]It wasn't that Serena was trying to hit the ball it, she lost the point because she WASN'T READY for Vika to get the ball back and she didn't have time to properly set up for the shot and it went long. Serena was on the right side of the court when she hit that angle and she had to run back to the backside of the left hand side of the court to get to that ball and she was planted right and she hit it long.
Sorry, but Rena WAS READY to get that shot: playing tennis IS getting ready to get to every shot, and that was the tennis Rena used to play against Vika during the whole match. As you said in one of your previous posts, maybe the first, she has an admirable defensive play, and I especially noticed in this match how Rena is very quick and reactive, anticipates perfectly on the rallies. Which of course doesn't keep you from being a bit late on some, as the opponent you're facing does everything to get you away from the ball.
Rena hit the ball a bit too strong because she lost perfect control. Regarding her placement, she's quite used to keep control in every kind of position.

That's one of those things I admired in her whole "control". Rena is powerful but quick as well. I've read your points above and disagree on one thing especially: the statement that Vika is stronger than Rena on the baseline game. I have the opposite opinion. But opinions are opinions, and our analysis is different. I find you too much focused on the serves. Tennis isn't all about serves. Once the serves and returns are done, there is everything else.

Two other points: I'm not the first Rena fan here, but Rena was my favorite of this match against Vika. Most of the time, I support Rena's opponents instead.

Second point: the crying Sabine. As I said once, it doesn't matter that much how emotional she is. I don't find that more disturbing than other players rageous screams. It doesn't keep Sabine from playing well. There are a lot of different characters in tennis. A wild character won't make you a better tennis player than a sweet one. Sabine is an emotive and strong player at once.

Crying is embarrassing, yes, but not more than breaking a racket or throwing cusswords in the air.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #478
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Sorry, but Rena WAS READY to get that shot: playing tennis IS getting ready to get to every shot, and that was the tennis Rena used to play against Vika during the whole match. As you said in one of your previous posts, maybe the first, she has an admirable defensive play, and I especially noticed in this match how Rena is very quick and reactive, anticipates perfectly on the rallies. Which of course doesn't keep you from being a bit late on some, as the opponent you're facing does everything to get you away from the ball.
Rena hit the ball a bit too strong because she lost perfect control. Regarding her placement, she's quite used to keep control in every kind of position.

That's one of those things I admired in her whole "control". Rena is powerful but quick as well. I've read your points above and disagree on one thing especially: the statement that Vika is stronger than Rena on the baseline game. I have the opposite opinion. But opinions are opinions, and our analysis is different. I find you too much focused on the serves. Tennis isn't all about serves. Once the serves and returns are done, there is everything else.

Two other points: I'm not the first Rena fan here, but Rena was my favorite of this match against Vika. Most of the time, I support Rena's opponents instead.

Second point: the crying Sabine. As I said once, it doesn't matter that much how emotional she is. I don't find that more disturbing than other players rageous screams. It doesn't keep Sabine from playing well. There are a lot of different characters in tennis. A wild character won't make you a better tennis player than a sweet one. Sabine is an emotive and strong player at once.

Crying is embarrassing, yes, but not more than breaking a racket or throwing cusswords in the air.

But if you go back and review the tape, Serena rand so fast to get to the ball that she overhit to make sure it went in. And she over hit because she was trying to hit it too deep so Vika couldn't get to the ball. That's all she really had to hit it in the open court. But things like that is not that big of a deal because the players are in the heat of the moment and their adrenaline is high and they sometimes go for too much trying to make sure the opponent doesn't get to the ball.

I too hate all of that screaming because it's not necessary. I wish Sabine can get her emotions in control because I think it keeps her from mentally taking the match. Just like there's no crying in baseball, there's should be no crying in tennis.
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #479
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

A season or two ago, Vika not win this match, but now she is pals with Serena Kardashian she dont feel intimidated as much
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Old Aug 20th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #480
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Re: Cincinnati Final : (2) Azarenka def. USO Series Champ (1) S.Williams 2-6 6-2 7-6

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Serena wasn't mentally fatigued because she did not entered the match mentally fatigued. Her fans keep trying to make it like she was soooo tired and that's why she lost.

I'm almost 1000000000% sure that her fans didn't think she was "mentally fatigued" when she won the first set in less than 30 minutes All of her fans thought it was going to be a normal day at the office with her winning the second set with a score of like 6-2 or 6-1.

It's not until Vika upped her game to match Serena's game that they are saying Serena was too mentally fatigued to get the win. Yeah right. She had to face an opponent who started matching her serve, her return game, and her ground game and her net game, and her opponent eeked out the win by playing a few crucial points better.

The Serena fans want to say that Serena lost because she was too mentally exhausted, instead of giving Vika the credit for upping her game and her mentally attitude to go the distance with Serena and prevail.

Vika won because she "upped her game and her mental attitude". Even when Serena had match point in the tiebreak, you could never tell that Vika was down because she was determined not to lose.

When Serena comes back from a deficit and wins the match, oh boy do the Serena fans talk about her being mentally strong to overcome her opponent and win. Even if Serena plays shitty in the first set like Vika did, she's still given the credit of the comback. Well that's what Vika did to Serena.

Vika must be given the credit for the win and she didn't win because Serena was "mentally fatigued". She won because she hit the right shots and forced Serena to error. That's why she won.
well said!
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