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Old Sep 22nd, 2014, 05:40 PM   #676
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post

Thats why that Lib Dem federalism would work better that just some devolved powers to regions of England. Split England up yes but give them all tons of powers and leave London to handle the big issues. That way Labour areas could implement Labour policies and Tory ones Tory policies. I don't see why the entity of England has to remain intact when it could be subdivided.
Fine, so long as the budget allocations go mostly to where the "real value" was created, regardless of where a corporate HQ is. One shortchanges Manchester, Birmingham, and the other industrial areas if they let London claim credit for all of the revenue, and leave (lets say the "Scousers" in Liverpool) having to ask for some of it back, as defacto charity.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2014, 09:26 PM   #677
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
The extremists on the No side certainly seem to hate anything and anyone foreign. There behaviour has been appalling.

The extremists on the Yes side 'just' hate anyone English, or who doesn't agree with them!
yes, i don't disagree with you. but with the extremists on the YES side, they are more disorganised morons who the pro-independence organisations distance themselves from, whereas the NO clowns actually represent certain popular organisations. the NO campaign did try to distance themselves from the orange order demonstration, to be fair.

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Thats why that Lib Dem federalism would work better that just some devolved powers to regions of England. Split England up yes but give them all tons of powers and leave London to handle the big issues. That way Labour areas could implement Labour policies and Tory ones Tory policies. I don't see why the entity of England has to remain intact when it could be subdivided.
federalism might not be dead, but the lib dems are. their collaboration with cameron and their absolute lack of will to fight the tories on austerity measures has finished them off. their sheer greed might have worked well for nick clegg's bank balance and ego, but it has destroyed them as a party. they will have their worst election ever next year and i can see the party being dissolved.

i have absolutely no sympathy either. they have always been a party that leans right or left with the wind, fills voids where it sees an opportunity and provides hand-wringing, mamby-pamby statements over important matters. for example, they opposed the war in iraq only because it wasn't legal and wasn't sanctioned by the un.

they had the tories over a barrel and could have pushed for more federalism, for fairer uni fees (if not an end to tuition fees), or for less harsh treatment of welfare claimants. instead, they got the 1 concession of a referendum on the alternative vote system - a system they don't even think is ideal and which personally i think is just a stupider variant of FPTP.

(not criticising any of the points you made, btw, just felt like having a rant about the lib dems )
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Old Sep 23rd, 2014, 12:03 AM   #678
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

i think all countries/provinces should declare independence. i think government always works better if it and the country is smaller. centralisation of power isn't democratic, and it creates these 'super-power' nations (america,GB,...) which inevitably leads to things like war, interventionism, etc... which is why i wince everytime i hear someone say they voted no because they were scared. i think it was a leap in the dark scotland should have taken!
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Old Sep 23rd, 2014, 12:45 AM   #679
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

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Originally Posted by heavyhorse View Post
i think all countries/provinces should declare independence. i think government always works better if it and the country is smaller. centralisation of power isn't democratic, and it creates these 'super-power' nations (america,GB,...) which inevitably leads to things like war, interventionism, etc... which is why i wince everytime i hear someone say they voted no because they were scared. i think it was a leap in the dark scotland should have taken!
For me at least, that's not exactly a direction I'd want to take my country in when being wrong could mean economic disaster. In my opinion. YES didn't have a strong enough foothold in arguing its domestic policies to justify the massive step towards independence and the urge to make the leap of faith anyway for national pride was not a good enough substitute.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2014, 01:30 PM   #680
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

Economic disaster? Where exactly do you think this is Zimbabwe, also the UK is hardly doing outstanding on standard of living indicators in Western European terms anyway. 9 out of 10 of the poorest regions in the Western EU are in the UK.

Most countries have to take a leap of faith, if they did the European colonial system would still be in place which by the sounds of it some in this thread would rather.
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Old Sep 25th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #681
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

A new poll has only 3% of Welsh voters wanting independence. Scotland voted No, Wales evidently would vote No, and its near certain Northern Ireland would vote no.

I think it at least gives the lie to the suggestion that the UK is some awful oppressive place or that everyone is toiling under English tyranny.

That said, I think for England things are looking bleak for the future. Cameron's proposed changes to the Westminster voting system would leave England (and thus the wider UK) dominated by the Tories. Add in the rise of UKIP, and the probable withdrawal from the EU, maybe the Yes voters in Scotland had a point.
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Old Sep 25th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #682
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

Wouldn't an independent Wales be one of the poorest countries in Europe?
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Old Sep 25th, 2014, 02:57 AM   #683
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Re: Scotland voted against independence (18th of September 2014)

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

I think it at least gives the lie to the suggestion that the UK is some awful oppressive place or that everyone is toiling under English tyranny.
Who suggested that?

In the long run it made more sense for Scotland to vote yes, economically as well as everything else. Joseph Stiglitz was even onboard, He has a Nobel prize so I'd rather his assessment that the likes of Michelle Mone and whoever is running RBS.
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