[azdaja]

Originally Posted by Bartosh

If you like to believe that most people are gay/bisexual then it's your problem. But please don't twist facts to support your beliefs - there's no evidence that there were more gay people in ancient Greece than in modern Greece. It was more accepted so we have a lot of historical sources about it but there are no sources claiming that homosexuality was widespread. In our times more of them are in closet but general numbers are probably the same (which is probably around 10%)

10% is actually overestimated. representatives of minorities tend to inflate their numbers. a more sober analysis puts the number of homosexual and bisexual people at lower than 5% and closer to just 2%. which is not a bad thing. the rest of the difference are people who are sexually "curious" or willing to experiment. essentially it is probably true that most people are not 100% hetero or gay. not many feel the urge to satisfy their curiosity, though, and of those who do most will choose a partner from the opposite sex eventually and not just because the society expects them to.

Originally Posted by Beat

he's a member of parliament and as such he's obliged to vote to the best of his knowledge and belief. that's the way a parliament in a democratic country works.

no, that's how it should work but it doesn't. not in russia, not in the usa, not in the west european countries.

[JCTennisFan]

Originally Posted by delicatecutter

Is Putin like basically a dictator?

Well there was supposed to be a term limit and he recently (when he got a 3rd term) broke that rule.

And before he did that he effectively swapped seats with Medvedev, who is basically his puppet.

So..... yeah. He is basically a dictator.

[JCTennisFan]

Originally Posted by azdaja

10% is actually overestimated. representatives of minorities tend to inflate their numbers. a more sober analysis puts the number of homosexual and bisexual people at lower than 5% and closer to just 2%. which is not a bad thing. the rest of the difference are people who are sexually "curious" or willing to experiment. essentially it is probably true that most people are not 100% hetero or gay. not many feel the urge to satisfy their curiosity, though, and of those who do most will choose a partner from the opposite sex eventually and not just because the society expects them to.


no, that's how it should work but it doesn't. not in russia, not in the usa, not in the west european countries.

Oh wow... so Black people overstate their percentages in America? How about Latinos?

Left-handed people say there are more of them then there really is?

The rest of your post was reasonable but the 2-5% part is pure dumbass....

Roughly 2 or so percent of Asians are left-handed as opposed to the rest of the world's averages being around 10-15%.... but the overwhelming reason why is because Asian culture tends to (though it has become less so in the past few decades) discourage left-handedness and encourages conformity.... not because Asians actually have less occurrence of left-handedness.

In other words society can force (whether directly or indirectly) certain minorities (This only applies to minorities which are moldable.... your skin color, for instance, isn't something you can change so obviously it doesn't count) into lower percentages than otherwise should or would be the case if that pressure was absent.

10-15% are probably in the "mostly gay" spectrum.

A large percentage of the rest are somewhere in the gray spectrum of not fully straight but not fully gay.... though the overwhelming majority of those people will end up settling down with the opposite sex... usually because they want to fit in, please their parents, want to have children, find it substantially easier to find a long term mate, etc.

There is more than likely another 10-15% of the population which is in the "mostly straight" category that have little if any desire to do anything sexual with the opposite sex.

Basically sexuality is similar to a bell curve. But it is a bell curve which is heavily influenced by social pressure which ends up making most of the gray area settle in the straight category.

[azdaja]

Originally Posted by JCTennisFan

Oh wow... so Black people overstate their percentages in America? How about Latinos?

i don't know about latinos but black people definitely do. let's start with the president of the country who is of mixed race heritage

2 to 5% is most likely the reality. i support the rights of the gay people all the way nevertheless, though. a minority or not they deserve the same rights as everyone else. is there anything wrong with being a part of a small minority anyway? but i have no reasons to believe gay people represent more of the population than what i said (the 5 or below percentage actually comes from places that tolerate homosexuality as opposed to "0" in places like iran). the "curious" heterosexual people inflate those numbers. but even if you try something gay at some point in your life, does it mean you are gay? i don't think so.

nevertheless, i support gay marriage, adoptions, everything. i simply don't think gay people need huge numbers in order to get it.

[Novichok]

Originally Posted by azdaja

i don't know about latinos but black people definitely do. let's start with the president of the country who is of mixed race heritage

No, black people don't. In fact, most black people don't make claims (or care) about the black percentage of the U.S. population.

And just so you know, most black people in the U.S. are of mixed-raced ancestry unless they are recent immigrants from Africa.

[azdaja]

Originally Posted by Novichok

No, black people don't. In fact, most black people don't make claims (or care) about the black percentage of the U.S. population.

And just so you know, most black people in the U.S. are of mixed-raced ancestry unless they are recent immigrants from Africa.

i think i know that, especially given that some of my friends are african americans. i'm saying it in the context of the "struggle" for the equality of the races. and in this sense, yes, a lot was made out of the fact that obama has african ancestors. this was more about the "identitiy politics" than about what black people think.

[delicatecutter]

Originally Posted by Novichok

No, black people don't. In fact, most black people don't make claims (or care) about the black percentage of the U.S. population.

And just so you know, most black people in the U.S. are of mixed-raced ancestry unless they are recent immigrants from Africa.

I don't think most black people are directly mixed-race i.e. have a white parent though.

[debopero]

Originally Posted by delicatecutter

I don't think most black people are directly mixed-race i.e. have a white parent though.

I don't think that's what he was claiming...

[delicatecutter]

I didn't say he did..

[Olórin]

Originally Posted by azdaja

10% is actually overestimated. representatives of minorities tend to inflate their numbers. a more sober analysis puts the number of homosexual and bisexual people at lower than 5% and closer to just 2%. which is not a bad thing. the rest of the difference are people who are sexually "curious" or willing to experiment. essentially it is probably true that most people are not 100% hetero or gay. not many feel the urge to satisfy their curiosity, though, and of those who do most will choose a partner from the opposite sex eventually and not just because the society expects them to.


no, that's how it should work but it doesn't. not in russia, not in the usa, not in the west european countries.

Disturbing if you believe a "sober analysis" would be closer to revealing the underlying reality than a more "optimistic one". When so many people who are gay closet themselves and "don't declare" or "prefer not to say" on forms, sober analysis doesn't really cut to the heart of it. It's fair to say the lowest estimates surveys are just that: low!

And the rest of your comment about people opting for different-sex unions independently of societal pressure is only based in the reality you have constructed for yourself, i.e. your own opinion. No doubt there are many people who prefer being a different sex couple, but no doubt there are many that have been prevented from forming same-sex attachment in the first instance due to powerful societal barriers.

[woosey]

Originally Posted by azdaja

i think i know that, especially given that some of my friends are african americans. i'm saying it in the context of the "struggle" for the equality of the races. and in this sense, yes, a lot was made out of the fact that obama has african ancestors. this was more about the "identitiy politics" than about what black people think.

you're funny.

[dybbuk]

Originally Posted by azdaja

i don't know about latinos but black people definitely do. let's start with the president of the country who is of mixed race heritage

2 to 5% is most likely the reality. i support the rights of the gay people all the way nevertheless, though. a minority or not they deserve the same rights as everyone else. is there anything wrong with being a part of a small minority anyway? but i have no reasons to believe gay people represent more of the population than what i said (the 5 or below percentage actually comes from places that tolerate homosexuality as opposed to "0" in places like iran). the "curious" heterosexual people inflate those numbers. but even if you try something gay at some point in your life, does it mean you are gay? i don't think so.

nevertheless, i support gay marriage, adoptions, everything. i simply don't think gay people need huge numbers in order to get it.

But I mean, how are these two situations even analogous.... even if we accept your idea that blacks "overstate" their blackness somehow (I don't even get your point, but let's accept it and move on), how does that prove anything about gay people. If mixed race people are somehow more likely to claim they are black, instead of whatever other race they are, what does that have to do with gay people? What vast number of people are falsely claiming to be gay to inflate their numbers from 2% to 10%? Why would straight people claim to be gay if they're not? So out of the 10% claiming they are gay you're telling me that possibly 80% of them are straight people deluded about their own sexualities? In what way would they benefit from pretending to be gay in a census? You sound scarily like some super right wing people trying to assure gay people that they're not really gay, they are just curious and are really straight deep down. If those people identify as gay, they are gay. You don't get to choose their sexuality for them because you think they are just curious. This is not even getting into the obvious fact that while gay people have no reason to pretend to be gay, they have many reasons to pretend NOT to be gay. You're at least getting a few percentage points from closeted people who would be too scared to ever admit they were gay for a census.

[azdaja]

Originally Posted by Olórin

Disturbing if you believe a "sober analysis" would be closer to revealing the underlying reality than a more "optimistic one". When so many people who are gay closet themselves and "don't declare" or "prefer not to say" on forms, sober analysis doesn't really cut to the heart of it. It's fair to say the lowest estimates surveys are just that: low!

And the rest of your comment about people opting for different-sex unions independently of societal pressure is only based in the reality you have constructed for yourself, i.e. your own opinion. No doubt there are many people who prefer being a different sex couple, but no doubt there are many that have been prevented from forming same-sex attachment in the first instance due to powerful societal barriers.

sorry, but you are the one who bases oneself on a reality constructed for you.

Originally Posted by woosey

you're funny.

this right here is a classic example of how a supporter or a member of a minority group can act like a twat. you see, it's not exactly easy for someone living in austria to have any american friends, let alone ones who happen to be in a minority which represents a fraction of the american population. and i would say that it's not easy to understand the cultural differences between europe and the us, so i wanted to point out that i actually have more experience with this than an average european.

but i get what you wanted to say

Originally Posted by dybbuk

But I mean, how are these two situations even analogous.... even if we accept your idea that blacks "overstate" their blackness somehow (I don't even get your point, but let's accept it and move on), how does that prove anything about gay people. If mixed race people are somehow more likely to claim they are black, instead of whatever other race they are, what does that have to do with gay people? What vast number of people are falsely claiming to be gay to inflate their numbers from 2% to 10%? Why would straight people claim to be gay if they're not? So out of the 10% claiming they are gay you're telling me that possibly 80% of them are straight people deluded about their own sexualities? In what way would they benefit from pretending to be gay in a census? You sound scarily like some super right wing people trying to assure gay people that they're not really gay, they are just curious and are really straight deep down. If those people identify as gay, they are gay. You don't get to choose their sexuality for them because you think they are just curious. This is not even getting into the obvious fact that while gay people have no reason to pretend to be gay, they have many reasons to pretend NOT to be gay. You're at least getting a few percentage points from closeted people who would be too scared to ever admit they were gay for a census.

you are missing the point. i didn't say that straight people declare as gay. actually, i remember a few years ago right here in this forum someone posted an article with percentages of people who declared themselves to be gay or bisexual in the most liberal countries in the world regarding this issue and it was close to what i said, 5-6% or lower. we can only speculate if there are more people than that who are in the closet. this is not about how people feel but how those who represent (or oppose) them them classify them. i strongly oppose imposing any kind of identity on anyone and strongly encourage everyone who feels gay to be just that and openly so for as much as their environment allows them to. they certainly won't find an obstacle in me. and of course i never said that black people overstate their own blackness. it is others (including sometimes other black people) that do. to take an eample that isn't american, are roots of the austrian football star david alaba more african than filipino? yet most people consider him simply black with recently some moronic politician even talking to him in english and hence ignoring that the guy was born and raised in vienna

my point is that both sides in identity politics speculate with numbers. to take another example, i once talked to a kurdish refugee from iraq who told me about how many kurds are there i turkey, iraq, iran and syria. he easily doubled the number in each country. probably because kurdish nationalists believe that bigger numbers entitle them to more rights, including to an independent state. i feel gay activists do the same by speculating about how many people are in the closet. i don't think numbers matter that much, yuo have the right to be who you are no matter if you are 1% or 10% of the population.

[SilverPersian]

Most of the surveys I've seen do support what azdaja is saying about the prevalence of lesbian/gay identity; in Australia it's something like 3-4% of men report as gay, about 2-3% women as lesbian. The actual figure might be higher for a few reasons (some people might be closeted and not want to disclose, some people might be gay and not have realised, some people might refuse to respond to the question). There's also the issue that a number of people who sleep with someone of the same sex never take on a lesbian/gay/bisexual identity, and still understand themselves as heterosexual.

The widely referenced 10% figure, to my understanding, comes from the research of Kinsey. For a few different reasons (the fact that Kinsey specifically talks about sexual behaviour rather than sexual identity, that his sample was not random, and that his research was done half a century ago), it's probably not a good idea to trust his research on the question of prevalence in the present day.

Although, to be honest, I never really get the significance attached to numbers on this question. Even if only two people on the entire planet wanted to sleep with someone of the same sex, it wouldn't morally justify the state retraction of rights or homophobic persecution