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Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

202K views 2K replies 319 participants last post by  Arthus92 
#1 ·
I'm consistently seeing posters (and now tennis players) assert that Serena is the greatest of all time, not Graf.

I'm wondering--in what empirical data as of this moment in time is Serena greater than Graf in terms of achievements? Or is it simply a peak versus peak hypothetical that she's greater?
 
#86 ·
about Seles and Graf debate

prior to Monica being stabbed she won 8 of the last 9 slams.

after being stabbed Graf won 1993 RG, Wimbledon, US Open, 1994 AO (odds say without being stabbed Monica would of won 3 of those since she had dominated RG, US Open and AO over the previous 2-3 years)

Graf also won RG, Wimbledon, US Open in 1995 and 1996

Seles first slam back post stabbing was 1995 US Open

so during Monicas absense Graf won 6 majors

assuming recent trends of 1991 AO --> 1993 AO continued Graf would of won 1993 and 1995 Wimbledon with Seles winning the rest
 
#90 ·
cleary anyone with sober mind will agree with Sam.L whose point is much more logical and convincing. Graf benefited a lot from Seles's being stabbed, so her reputation as the greatest player remains skeptical till now.I believe once Serena wins another 6 slams, there is no need to open a thread like this, for who is the greatest is apparent to see.
 
#92 ·
Quick question for the Graf fans. What one, continuous period of tennis was Graf's best period of play, in your opinion? Was it 1988? 1989? 1995? 1996? It is my contention that Seles' level of play from the '92 U.S. Open-stabbing was higher than any level of play than Graf accomplished. So, what is the one period of Graf's play that you want to measure against that period of Seles' dominance?
 
#473 · (Edited)
I am not a fan of Graf or Seles but since your clearly Seles nutter arguments are so intriguing I will answer this too as it is another funny one.

Graf's peak years were obviously 1988-1989 and 1995-1996. It is rather silly to even ask this. You are limiting Seles's peak to a 6 month period? You also conveniently start at a point directly AFTER 3 straight tournament losses to Seles, not only Wimbledon to Graf, but two others. You also imply a period Seles was winning 3 slams per year can be somehow deemed to not amongst her peak. Umm ok. Well either way I would easily take either Graf of 88-89 or 95-96 over any supposed Seles peak, even your limited version.

Graf won all 6 majors she played in 95-96, and all 8 major events counting the 2 WTA Championships. Graf won 7 of 8 majors and lost 7-5 in the finals of the other, and had something like a total 170-5 record over 2 years. I dont believe any version of Seles that ever existed was capable of that, nor did she ever manage to produce it. To win 13 of 14 majors in a given 4 yeras of peak tennis, either together or broken up like Graf's were, would probably require her winning 3 of 4 or 4 of 4 Wimbledons, the thought of alone which is hilarious. Furthmore this peak Seles you refer to lost a set to Julie Halard in her Australian Open win, and lost a match to a 36 year old Navratilova something that I cant imagine peak Graf (remember referring only to 88-89 or 95-96 Graf, not less outstanding versions of somewhat prime Graf) ever doing, especialy when she didnt lose a single match to 31 year old Navratilova in 88-89. So the answer all around is quite easy, yes still Graf no problems.

Even if you choose to protest to know like the genie years into the future you think you are that Graf wouldnt have had her 95-96 success without the Seles stabbing, that obviously in no way can apply to 88-89. Meanwhile any whining that 88-89 Graf didnt face prime Navratilova (she magically exited her prime once Graf emerged, the same way you point out Graf fans claim hers magically vanished when Seles emerged, both probably are fables from butthurt fanboys on both sides more than reality), prime Seles, is no different than one saying peak Seles played Fernandez, Sanchez, Novotna, people even you deem as weak in almost all her slam finals. That and that other than a mere 4 matches with Graf in 91-92 had easy competition as you seem to deem the Graf era players easy anyway, and so on, and basically nothing more than conjecture. It is not like you can make the argument Seles had a way deeper field to face like you could with Serena when she compiled her dominant but still less dominant than Navratilova or Graf peak stats in 2002-2003. No way was that the case back then for either Graf or Seles, and Graf produced results and stats the likes of which Seles never did, and IMO Seles would never be capable of doing.
 
#93 ·
Graf out of the slams, equal in slams, serena has better peak level.
 
#99 ·
Why can't we have one big thread for all GOAT discussions like on MTF? That'd make much more sense imo.
 
#108 ·
So I think we can end this argument until no. 23
I don't remember Graf consistently losing to players outside the top 10 in slams.
 
#125 ·
This threads stupid and has been exasperated by serenas loss and now all hur butt hurt tards are marching in to save face only to make em. Selves look even more pathetic. Serenas loss wasn't pathetic, but how fans of tennis (note not just serenas fans) respond to this loss is(pathetic).


Peace y'all, from the one true GOAT!
 
#126 ·
Serena is without a shadow of a doubt the best player in the last 15 years. Steffi was the best player in the previous 15 years, with Monica. Before them came Navratilova, Evert and Court. Further back still Connolly, Wills-Moody and Lenglen. Each ruled the game in her prime and deserves her place at the top table.There's no point in going any further than that.
 
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#133 ·
Days like this are good. Remind me again how many times did Graf, Seles, and Serena win Wimbledon and the French in the same year?
 
#135 ·
Seles fans choose to ONLY look at the Graf Seles head to head from 90 to 93, because it suits them. Even then, it is important to note that Seles barely had a one match lead during that period, with all her wins coming on slower surfaces. That Seles was dominating Graf is a HUGE myth that some Seles fans try to keep alive. Steffi lead the head to head with Seles during all four significant periods in their career, i.e.
1 - When Graf was No.1 (3-2 Graf)
2 - When Seles was No.1 (3-2 Graf)
3 - When Both were No.1 (2-0 Graf)
4 - When Both were not No.1 (2-1 Graf)

Moreover, Seles never beat Graf on a faster surface, with all her wins coming on clay and rebound ace. Graf OTOH, beat Seles on clay, grass, carpet and decoturf.
 
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