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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 08:35 PM   #5011
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
Ummmm....You're missing the point just a bit, Gaston. It's not that we can't understand why she's getting hyped, it's that it's rather EXCESSIVE for someone who has accomplished VERY little and, like Kournikova, could conceivably NEVER win a single tourney.('per se' should be separated, btw)You're correct, though, in that she couldn't have reached the top 20 if she didn't have at least SOME potential for greatness.

The PROBLEM is that Allaster disgraces the sport by championing players who don't give a rat's ass--and are piss-poor role models for young girls and the supposed "empowering women" theme--merely because they're eye candy. You'd be pressed to name ANY other sport that does this; if Messi got so out of shape that he kept getting hopelessly exhausted 15 minutes into matches....and he made absolutely NO effort to improve his training....would he keep getting hyped according to his PAST glories, or would his stardom wane due to his embarrassing disinterest?? That's a rhetorical question, so you needn't reply...but a WTA cover girl could do that and not suffer ANY loss of hype from the WTA media machine...as long as she smiled for her promos

With her outward physical appearance, it IS easy to see why Bouchard is pushed but, recently, she's gotten the same level of hype as Serena or Big Masha.....and that's just pathetic, Gaston
No, it's not. That's marketing. You go by what's selling and keeps people interested. Is that "the right thing to do"? No, probably not. On the other hand - who cares? If Kournikova types put asses on seats and make people tune in to the WTA while Kuznetsova types don't, you push Kournikova types, and in the end everyone will profit from the increased attention - including the Kuznetsova types. Besides, top 20 is great. If you're one of the 20 best in boxing you're the wbc, wbo, wba, ibf, fbi, cia, plo, ira or whatever else champion of the world in one of their countless weight divisions. If you're the 20th best sccer player in the world you're a superstar who plays for Real Madrid, Manchester United or Barcelona. If you're the 20th best swimmer you're an Olympic gold medalist in butterfly, crawl, backstroke or butterfly in the 100, 200, 400. 800 or 1500 meters. And I could say the same thing about most other sports. Top 20 doesn't sound like much, but since there is only the one event where you have to compete against everyone else it's on par with being a world champion in most other sports.

Has nothing to do with Bouchard persé but you might find this bit from an interview with former Wimbledon finalist Chris Lewis food for thought. He's basically saying in a much more eloquent way what I have always believed to be the truth myself concerning the skill level of tennis players as compared to other athletes.

Which brings me to my next point. The skill that’s required to play at the level of Federer, Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic is beyond belief. Further, when you look closely at the skill level of any of the players in the top 100, while not at the level of the greats, it is still unbelievably high. As a general proposition, given the depth and strength of today’s game, I think that there is a marked imbalance between the demand for a rewarding career and the supply of such. Outside of the top few players, who are rewarded fairly, I think there should be more players who are able to make a really good living from the game.

Of all the thousands of talented young players who want to pursue a tennis career, the percentage who will be successful is less than minuscule. There are more players playing than ever before, and even though there are far more international junior tournaments and entry level pro events than there were in my day, I don’t think there are any more players today making a good living compared to when I was playing.

Not for a second am I suggesting that the answer is an egalitarian approach whereby prize money is taken from those ranked higher and distributed to those ranked lower. The top players deserve every cent they make. My contention is that the number 100 ranked player, who has acquired an incredibly high level of skill, should be making much more.

At the end of the day, though, tennis, like any sport or business, is market driven. But I think the market gives tennis and tennis players a raw deal. When you compare the level of skill of those in team sports with the level of skill of tennis players, and then compare the average salaries of each, I think that it amounts to a triumph for mediocrity. I put it down to the fact that the average person just doesn’t have the ability to evaluate properly the enormous achievement of a tennis player ranked 100 in the world.

To me, it’s almost as much as an injustice as the latest rap star having far greater appeal than the musical virtuoso whose genius goes virtually unnoticed by the lumpen masses. If there was anything that was in my power to change, I would love to be able to provide more careers to more players by generating more spectator interest in the sport. Imagine if tennis had as much appeal to the average Joe as mindless video games do. But given the state of the culture today, there’s about as much chance of that as today’s equivalent of a Mozart having wider appeal than Justin Bieber. In other words, none.
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 08:47 PM   #5012
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
Ummmm....You're missing the point just a bit, Gaston. It's not that we can't understand why she's getting hyped, it's that it's rather EXCESSIVE for someone who has accomplished VERY little and, like Kournikova, could conceivably NEVER win a single tourney.('per se' should be separated, btw)You're correct, though, in that she couldn't have reached the top 20 if she didn't have at least SOME potential for greatness.

The PROBLEM is that Allaster disgraces the sport by championing players who don't give a rat's ass--and are piss-poor role models for young girls and the supposed "empowering women" theme--merely because they're eye candy. You'd be pressed to name ANY other sport that does this; if Messi got so out of shape that he kept getting hopelessly exhausted 15 minutes into matches....and he made absolutely NO effort to improve his training....would he keep getting hyped according to his PAST glories, or would his stardom wane due to his embarrassing disinterest?? That's a rhetorical question, so you needn't reply..
I can though: Maradonna. He was regularly completely out of shape - pot bellied and everything. Everyone still called him the best player in history because, well, he was. And whenever he was in the mood he got back into shape and was his awesome self again. Other example - Ronaldo (the Brasilian one). Fatter than Kvitova one day, a few months later unstoppable. Or George Best - an alcoholic who was more interested in boinking groupies than training. But again - he was a hero because everyone knew what he could do if he put his mind to it.
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 08:59 PM   #5013
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I can though: Maradonna. He was regularly completely out of shape - pot bellied and everything. Everyone still called him the best player in history because, well, he was. And whenever he was in the mood he got back into shape and was his awesome self again. Other example - Ronaldo (the Brasilian one). Fatter than Kvitova one day, a few months later unstoppable. Or George Best - an alcoholic who was more interested in boinking groupies than training. But again - he was a hero because everyone knew what he could do if he put his mind to it.
This is a VERY poor analogy, though, because critics weren't afraid to bash Maradona(ONE 'N', not two) when he slacked off, and I know that from reading such articles....and if he HADN'T re-committed himself at various points, then people would've just shaken their heads and called him a has-been.

No such honesty exists in the soft, swishy, overly-genteel world of tennis: Only an all-sports writer who covers the whole spectrum of the athletic world will dare to comment candidly about tennis players. The regular tennis media is too gutless to criticize players for being lazy or whatever other fault they have. Even the commissioner's office is a joke(at least in the WTA; I can't speak for the ATP director). Lisicki simply QUIT after losing the first set of a tournament final....claiming to have an "intestinal virus". However, when the photogs began taking shots of the winner, Erakovic, Sabine miraculously overcame her need for medical attention and posed for at least ten minutes with the champ. This was flat out robbery of the ticket-paying fans and, had it been an ugly player, she may've gotten fined and even suspended for a while.....but Machorra Allaster ENABLES this sort of fraud and unprofessional environment........Your other post was kinda long so I skipped over it, but I'm going back to read it now
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:19 PM   #5014
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
This is a VERY poor analogy, though, because critics weren't afraid to bash Maradona(ONE 'N', not two) when he slacked off, and I know that from reading such articles....and if he HADN'T re-committed himself at various points, then people would've just shaken their heads and called him a has-been.
It's a great analogy actually. Wozniacki was critisized far more while she was number one than Maradonna was when he was going through a slump. Besides, let me get a bit cocky: If I was a professional athlete I don't think I would care much about what they would write about me because, well, the reason why I would be competing while they are just writing about it is that I can and they can't. I mean, why should a Federer, or yes, even a Ivanovic care about what Pete Bodo writes? He's just a fat guy who would probably have a heart attack if he had to run 100m.
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:19 PM   #5015
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
No, it's not. That's marketing. You go by what's selling and keeps people interested. Is that "the right thing to do"? No, probably not. On the other hand - who cares? If Kournikova types put asses on seats and make people tune in to the WTA while Kuznetsova types don't, you push Kournikova types, and in the end everyone will profit from the increased attention - including the Kuznetsova types. Besides, top 20 is great. If you're one of the 20 best in boxing you're the wbc, wbo, wba, ibf, fbi, cia, plo, ira or whatever else champion of the world in one of their countless weight divisions. If you're the 20th best sccer player in the world you're a superstar who plays for Real Madrid, Manchester United or Barcelona. If you're the 20th best swimmer you're an Olympic gold medalist in butterfly, crawl, backstroke or butterfly in the 100, 200, 400. 800 or 1500 meters. And I could say the same thing about most other sports. Top 20 doesn't sound like much, but since there is only the one event where you have to compete against everyone else it's on par with being a world champion in most other sports.

Has nothing to do with Bouchard persé but you might find this bit from an interview with former Wimbledon finalist Chris Lewis food for thought. He's basically saying in a much more eloquent way what I have always believed to be the truth myself concerning the skill level of tennis players as compared to other athletes.[/i]
Well, even though it looked ominous in length, I actually appreciated the thoughts you shared from Lewis. You'll be happy to read that I don't consider this to be a MORAL issue...merely something that I take up as a sports fan.

To ME, there has to be at least some symmetry between the EXTENT of the hype and the person who benefits from it. From the world of basketball, American LeBron James received a huge amount of hype before he'd even laced up his shoes in the NBA; you'd have thought that he had proven himself as a HOF'er. In his defense, though, LeBron was already able to more than hold his own against NBA veterans at the age of 17, so there was reasonable justification for predicting that he WOULD be great(as he has long since established). Likewise, the Williams sisters were already a major threat to WTA veterans when they first arrived on the scene.....

......No such claim can be made by Bouchard...not even CLOSE. We both understand the Eye Candy Element in marketing; I simply feel that the DEGREE of hype for Bouchard far outweighs what she deserves. It's not an empirical fact...only my opinion......And you'd probably feel the same way if I exhaustedly hyped Duran Duran or Milli Vanilli as the musical equals of your favorite classic artists....OVER and OVER and OVER again as the WTA page shoves "Steffi" Bouchard down our throats......Now if Duran Duran happens to be your all-time favorites, then I hope that your Belgian village gets overrun by Luxembourgian(IF that's even a word) guerrila forces
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:30 PM   #5016
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
It's a great analogy actually. Wozniacki was critisized far more while she was number one than Maradonna was when he was going through a slump. Besides, let me get a bit cocky: If I was a professional athlete I don't think I would care much about what they would write about me because, well, the reason why I would be competing while they are just writing about it is that I can and they can't. I mean, why should a Federer, or yes, even a Ivanovic care about what Pete Bodo writes? He's just a fat guy who would probably have a heart attack if he had to run 100m.
No, it's a crappy analogy that smells like calf diarrhea; TF doesn't count because fan forums like these don't reflect how NORMAL people act. I agree that Bodo is a walking dildo but, even though he clearly didn't like Caro's defensive style, he was always very polite about it. I have yet to read ONE SOLITARY ARTICLE from a tennis media member who called out a player for quitting/tanking matches. Such articles might exist yet they're EXTREMELY rare from the tennis media, even when fully warranted. You won't see such a scarcity from the media for other sports. Further, many sports will treat an athlete like a non-person, in the old soviet bloc style, in re promotions, if he embarrasses the sport somehow. Despite his immense talent, there were ZERO Michael Vick promos after his dogfighting ring was exposed...and it took a long time after his return before anyone trusted him again

....And it's 'criticize' or, in the British way, 'criticise'....not 'critiSize'.Perhaps you should change the 'Cize' of your prescription glasses, old man
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:33 PM   #5017
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
Well, even though it looked ominous in length, I actually appreciated the thoughts you shared from Lewis. You'll be happy to read that I don't consider this to be a MORAL issue...merely something that I take up as a sports fan.

To ME, there has to be at least some symmetry between the EXTENT of the hype and the person who benefits from it. From the world of basketball, American LeBron James received a huge amount of hype before he'd even laced up his shoes in the NBA; you'd have thought that he had proven himself as a HOF'er. In his defense, though, LeBron was already able to more than hold his own against NBA veterans at the age of 17, so there was reasonable justification for predicting that he WOULD be great(as he has long since established). Likewise, the Williams sisters were already a major threat to WTA veterans when they first arrived on the scene.....

......No such claim can be made by Bouchard...not even CLOSE. We both understand the Eye Candy Element in marketing; I simply feel that the DEGREE of hype for Bouchard far outweighs what she deserves. It's not an empirical fact...only my opinion......And you'd probably feel the same way if I exhaustedly hyped Duran Duran or Milli Vanilli as the musical equals of your favorite classic artists....OVER and OVER and OVER again as the WTA page shoves "Steffi" Bouchard down our throats......Now if Duran Duran happens to be your all-time favorites, then I hope that your Belgian village gets overrun by Luxembourgian(IF that's even a word) guerrila forces
Well, I agree with your point about the music. But in music it's taken to far bigger extremes than in sports. Is Bouchard 'the best' tennis player? No. But she's top 20, which is very good. No way is Duran Duran a top 20 musical act - not even top 20.000 as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, why should all the attention go to only three or four top players? That's not healthy. In an ideal world the entire top 50 should be 'stars.'
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:40 PM   #5018
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
No, it's a crappy analogy that smells like calf diarrhea; TF doesn't count because fan forums like these don't reflect how NORMAL people act. I agree that Bodo is a walking dildo but, even though he clearly didn't like Caro's defensive style, he was always very polite about it. I have yet to read ONE SOLITARY ARTICLE from a tennis media member who called out a player for quitting/tanking matches. Such articles might exist yet they're EXTREMELY rare from the tennis media, even when fully warranted. You won't see such a scarcity from the media for other sports. Further, many sports will treat an athlete like a non-person, in the old soviet bloc style, in re promotions, if he embarrasses the sport somehow. Despite his immense talent, there were ZERO Michael Vick promos after his dogfighting ring was exposed...and it took a long time after his return before anyone trusted him again

....And it's 'criticize' or, in the British way, 'criticise'....not 'critiSize'.Perhaps you should change the 'Cize' of your prescription glasses, old man
I already make the effort to write in a foreign language because you guys are too dumb to write in mine, but I'll be damned if I can't write in the dialect of my own choosing.

Bodo, well, I don't like or dislike him more than any of the other writers. I read his stuff, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't - big deal. It's not that important what they write or what fans say on TF or the social media. In the end they have no impact on what happens on the tennis court.
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:46 PM   #5019
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Well, I agree with your point about the music. But in music it's taken to far bigger extremes than in sports. Is Bouchard 'the best' tennis player? No. But she's top 20, which is very good. No way is Duran Duran a top 20 musical act - not even top 20.000 as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, why should all the attention go to only three or four top players? That's not healthy. In an ideal world the entire top 50 should be 'stars.'
Well, I suppose that your second paragraph is true, but we both know that Machorra Allaster will never go for that. The reasonably-attractive Sorana always gets a feature whenever she changes coaches and supposedly unlocks the secret to get to the next level, but that's about it. Her prior deeds aren't significant enough...plus she's old enough that the WTA promo dept. has given up hope a bit. Bouchard is just 20 so even I can admit that she's young enough to be quasi-credibly promoted as a future star. Overall, tennis focuses much more on the upper elite than team sports do
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:48 PM   #5020
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Well, I suppose that your second paragraph is true
My first paragraph is true as well. Especially the part about Duran Duran!
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:50 PM   #5021
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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I already make the effort to write in a foreign language because you guys are too dumb to write in mine, but I'll be damned if I can't write in the dialect of my own choosing.
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Old Apr 21st, 2014, 09:53 PM   #5022
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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My first paragraph is true as well. Especially the part about Duran Duran!
If I ever met Simon LeBon, I'd say, "No se' que chingidas me cantas!"......When he offered a puzzled look in response, I'd translate, "I have no idea what the f--k you're singing about!"
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Old Apr 22nd, 2014, 12:07 AM   #5023
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Old Apr 22nd, 2014, 12:55 AM   #5024
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Only when I'm right.
Genug, schwach belgier! Hor die Herrenrasse Latino
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Ste. Kim, we didn't have you for long enough, but we appreciate what you gave us

Descansa en paz, Pedro Armendariz--OTRA victima de la incompetencia del hospital IMSS
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Old Apr 23rd, 2014, 06:09 PM   #5025
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,685
bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute bruce goose has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

My last sig line was suddenly "exchanged" for the one from the previous week; I wonder if Machorra Allaster has a membership here and complained about my choice of words
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Propaganda Director for the Olympic Slam Queen aboard SS Dementieva

Ste. Kim, we didn't have you for long enough, but we appreciate what you gave us

Descansa en paz, Pedro Armendariz--OTRA victima de la incompetencia del hospital IMSS
bruce goose is offline View My Blog!  
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