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View Poll Results: Who's responsoblecfor WWI

germany 18 26.47%
austria-hungary 12 17.65%
serbia(including the terrorists, Apis, Pasic and else) 16 23.53%
russia 2 2.94%
france 3 4.41%
britain 4 5.88%
italy by attacking lybia 2 2.94%
socialists (the reason monarchy started war to stop them!) 1 1.47%
Potiorek(stupid governor responsible for security in Bosnia) 1 1.47%
everybody(sleepwalking thesis by Christopher Clark) 9 13.24%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #76
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Everyone's gross overreactions I'll have to avoid British TV for a while next year with the amount of commemorations/telling each other how great they are that will be on.
I doubt many people will be using it to tell each other how great we are.

The most common view of the First World War in Britain, is that it was a terrible pointless waste of human life, with brave ordinary soldiers lead by incompetent officers to their deaths for little purpose.

Of course a few on the right want to change this consensus but they are very much in the minority.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 02:13 AM   #77
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
I doubt many people will be using it to tell each other how great we are.

The most common view of the First World War in Britain, is that it was a terrible pointless waste of human life, with brave ordinary soldiers lead by incompetent officers to their deaths for little purpose.

Of course a few on the right want to change this consensus but they are very much in the minority.
My grandmother always had the view that it was a terrible pointless waste of human life with brave, ordinary Canadian soldiers led by incompetent British officers to their deaths for little purpose.

The Great War was not kind to my maternal side.

(Ironically, all four of my Canadian relatives and both my American relatives--including my father--survived World War II without so much as a scratch, aside from one minor injury received in training. My dad managed to injure himself opening a can of beans with a bayonet while on maneuvers).
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 02:29 AM   #78
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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Originally Posted by fantic View Post
And I can't believe Russia has 0 votes Tzar's decision was a crucuial step in widening the theater from the regional to European, because it triggered Germany's reaction.
Russia should not have participated in this war I think we were taught that Tzar has hesitated with joining the war for quite a long time because he knew it was very dangerous for his country. And he was right to be scared, two WWs destroyed Russia.

We blame Germany for both WWs. Though Austria and Italy are not white sheep either GB and US benefited the most from these wars. I'd tell those grandmas that the wars were not waste for their countries economies, not at all.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 03:43 AM   #79
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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Russia should not have participated in this war I think we were taught that Tzar has hesitated with joining the war for quite a long time because he knew it was very dangerous for his country. And he was right to be scared, two WWs destroyed Russia.

We blame Germany for both WWs. Though Austria and Italy are not white sheep either GB and US benefited the most from these wars. I'd tell those grandmas that the wars were not waste for their countries economies, not at all.
Absolutely. Both Kaiser and Tsar really hesitated about it. But the Doves were not there to help them. And they were practicallly pushed by the military: they were too weak to resist.

Funny thing, in both Wars Germany tried to stop the inevitable: the rise of Russia. It happened anyway WWI also changed USA from a debtor nation to the greatest creditor nation. The rise of the both superpowers were inevitable..
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 03:56 AM   #80
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

Imperialism.I am going to write some main characteristics of imperialism, I hope you can understand it due to my average English.
So, imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism.It has 5 major characteristics:
1.Creating monopole (absolute economic predominance)
-fighting for market dominance
-merging of companies whose products weren't uncompetitive
-cartels
-syndicates
-trusts
-concerns
2.Creating monopole from banking and industry
-financial oligarchy
3.Export of capital
-highly developed countries are exporting their goods as well as capital in terms of loans, investments and credits into their colonies and semi-colonies.They are using raw materials, cheap manpower and they have market for their products.
Major capital export countries were the UK and France.
4. Creation of Super Monopole
Developed countries want to share global wealth, global market.
5. Tendency towards new division of the world-creation of blocks.
-interests of the European forces were opposed.New colonial forces wanted more colonies for themselves.
in the 1882. was created Tripartite Pact of Germany, Austria-Hungary and Italy with goal to create new division of the world and colonies.
Germany requested "life space" for German people in and outside of Germany.They wanted Scandinavian countries, Holland, part of Switzerland, east France, Baltic countries, Ukraine and Caucasus in Europe.Latter on, they changed their politics into the east settling.They wanted to reach Constantinople across Balkan countries.
A-H wanted annexation of B&H, wanted to exterminate Russian influence on Balkan, wanted Balkan to be starting point for Ostsiedlung, and it's territories.They had Germany's support.
Italy was fluctuating member because of the issues with A-H.
Appearance of Germany's imperialism on world's stage and it's rising aggressiveness has slowly dulled numerous oppositions within old European forces-the UK, France and Russia that created block of The Entente Powers.They wanted to preserve at-that-time division of the world.
Conflicting interests of these two blocks caused crisis which led to WWI.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 05:07 AM   #81
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

This was a pretty modern war, not only in a Total War sense, but that all were careful to enlist the people's support: propaganda.

France and Germany were especially prominent in this regard: France was very careful not to be seen as an aggressor, dismissed Joffre's suggestion to march to Belgium, and pulled their army back a few miles to let the German army first enter their territory.

Even Moltke was conscious of the need to impress the people: they maintained that it was a defensive war especially against Russia, and a key liberal member during the Weimar Republic even asserted this myth
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 05:11 AM   #82
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

Failure of Socialism was evident especially In Germany, because it had the biggest socialist party in europe: yet, when tested, it tamely approved the war credit and followed along: a portent of things to come in the Weimar era..
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #83
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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Originally Posted by fantic View Post

Failure of Socialism was evident especially In Germany, because it had the biggest socialist party in europe: yet, when tested, it tamely approved the war credit and followed along: a portent of things to come in the Weimar era..
But not in mother Russia, where some guy with a goatee took power with a promise of Peace, Bread, and Land.

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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 12:46 PM   #84
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

Letter From 1913 That Reveals That Vienna Planned WWI Presented

Plans for the start of the World War I existed 13 months before Sarajevo assassination and 14 months before the Austro-Hungarian declaration of war on Serbia, according to so far hidden letter, which was presented today in Andricgrad by the Director of the Archives of Serbia, Miroslav Perisic.
This letter was sent by the Governor of Bosnia and Herzegovina Oskar Potiorek to the Minister of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy Biliński on May 28 1913, and a copy was presented today in the Department of the History of Kamengrad.

Perisic said that the letter has significant importance for all those involved in the study of the World War I, because it reveals not only intentions of war circles in Vienna to start it, but also the attitudes of the ruling circles towards Serbs, Croats and Muslims and their relations, and especially the policy of Vienna against the Serbs in Bosnia and Serbia, as well as the supporters of the idea of unification of the South Slavs.

“Potiorek’s letter is a document that belongs to primary historical sources, because it was created at the moment the event occurred and it is one of the most important historical sources for the study of the questions of guilt and responsibility for the start of the World War I,” said Perisic.

He said that reasons for hiding the document are not hard to guess, because its content did not fit into the desired or constructed unscientific picture of prehistory and history of the beginning of the World War I.

“This extremely important document has not been available to historians nor it was used in scientific papers, although it was first published in 1928 in “Vecernja posta” in Sarajevo, and was stored in the so-called black cabinet which hides the most important and trusted mail,” said Perisic.

The copy of this valuable historical document for clarification of the cause of the start of the World War I has been stored in the Archives of Serbia while the original is still being sought.

A member of the Board of Andric Institute for marking the anniversary of the World War I Miroslav Jovanovic said that Sarajevo assassination was not the verdict, it was just the pretext for the outbreak of a great world’s bloodshed which killed nine million soldiers and five million civilians.

“Austro-Hungaria has put the reason for the start of the World War I on the shoulders of Serbia and Russia which was later supported by numerous famous historians such as Chris Clark and Sean McCain,” said Jovanovic.



Vienna and Berlin obviously planned to start a war for years, they just needed a good official reason. Austrian/German ambitions to conquire the Balkans, as the weak link of Europe at that time, and get access to the sea are well known. Too bad we don't read about it too much in History books.

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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 02:29 PM   #85
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

Serbian posters, we Koreans also learned that way in the Middle School too, that big power imperialism caused the war. But, I got to learn more...

As I said, war is basically the disturbance of the status quo. German's Weltpolitik is what, only half, nay maybe a quarter of the whole truth.

You think only Germany was trying to expand? Hell no! There are those weeny tiny Balkan countries that also disturbed the peace

Do you know that Serbia DOUBLED its territory after 2 Balkan wars? Betcha you didn't know that!
And were they content? Nope, they wanted more, to gobble A-H's territories too! A-H's response was so basically a REACTION to Serbia's provocation.

So Germany tried to disturb the imperialistic status quo.

Balkans tried to disturb the status quo of A-H and Ottoman Empires!
Russia? They wanted control of Constantinople and the Bosphorus too! Always have been!(Crimean War, anybody?)
France? They dreamed of revanche(revenge, taking back Alsace, Lorraine)!
England? They wanted to preserve the European status quo, that is, won't allow Germany to become more of a Continental superpower!
Germany? They wanted to preserve their Continental superpower status and stop Russia becoming mightier!

See? Status quo has so many 'shades'
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 02:36 PM   #86
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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But not in mother Russia, where some guy with a goatee took power with a promise of Peace, Bread, and Land.

Oh yes, Germany and Lenin's interest clicked(peace, so that Germany can have just one front), so much so that Germany let them board the train to get back to Russia just in time!
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #87
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

Just Do it, you don't even have to quote Potiorek. Conrad, the chief of staff, had been advocating war for years, even in 1905. But do you know that he got sacked in 1912 or something?

The German blank check theory is still controversial. That's Fritz Fischer's original version, but nowadays the 'tamed' version is accepted. Moltke also wanted war for years. But the monarchs including, MANY were against war: it's just not as simple as that.
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #88
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

This is not much known, but 2 important facts:

Kaiser and Tsar waivered, to.the.last. Hardly an indication of a decision made long time ago.

3 wars before the main event were caused by the smaller powers: Italy against Ottoman, Balkans against Ottoman, and among Balkans(Bulgaria enlarged its territory a lot so others were jealous: so Bulgaria, wait for it azdaja! WAGED A PREVENTIVE WAR! and got routed Hence, Bulgaria joining Germany and A-H later)
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 04:18 PM   #89
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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To reiterate: you say Germany's imperialistic ambition.

That's middle school level understanding.

It's Germany's fear of annihilation that started the preventive war against France and Russia. Moltke was a deeply pessimistic guy you know. The mentality is not unlike Rome. Look at the geography! Their fear of encirclement ironically led to their conquest.

I can't get over the fact that you brazenly accused this discussion laughable when you yourself have only a superficial understanding at best You're not even disinterested, a fail as a scholarly mindset. You dismissed Clark but he's not a hack, I don't agree on his thesis either but I at least READ him for more understanding. You're not only biased, but sadly, lazy as well.
germany was defeated completely and thoroughly twice during the twentieth century and survived. suggesting that their survival was at stake and hence them starting a "preventive" war (the term i heard first when bush invaded iraq) is hence completely wrong. what was at stake was german imperialist ambition. this is why you, correctly, learned at school that imperialism was the main cause of the war.

we didn't even need to go on about the arms race, the building of a navy which was intended to challenge the british domination at seas, the schleieffen plan etc. the argument of the "preventive" war is laughable anyway. if you push for a war you are responsible for it, period. if you shoot at someone just because you think they might get a gun and shoot at you in the future you are a killer. it really is that simple.

it's the same with austria-hungary who didn't fear that serbia was going to conquer vienna but that the habsburgs would lose control over the people they subjugated. nationalism was widespread on the territories controlled by the habsburgs, that's why the empire didn't survive the war.

but the vocabulary you are using is something i recognise from the present - "preventive war", "terrorist state", a small country "provoking" a big one. i'd say the people who wrote the books you wasted time on reading are charlatans. you get a lot of those in humanities and social sciences.

btw, posting lol smilies won't prevent you from looking stupid just like simply reading books won't necessarily make you smarter. you still are a simpleton. and btw, i saw you were very amused and posting lol smilies in the thread about the fukushima disaster. what was so amusing there?
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Old Jan 6th, 2014, 04:29 PM   #90
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Re: Who's responsible for WWI?

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