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Old Nov 23rd, 2013, 02:07 AM   #46
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Please take a look at the seeds at the French Open from 1970 to 1979. I don't see much top players missing. Obviously Evert not playing for three years (76-78) was a big miss. But the French wasn't neglected by most top players for that matter.

Feel free to correct me everyone.

EDIT: on closer inspection, there's a hole of seeds in the years Evert missed: 76, 77 and 78 (but not from 1970 to 1975, either in 1979). I know there are some reasons for that, but I don't know much about it.
This is true, the reason Chris did not play the FO those years was because she was wasting her time playing team tennis. Otherwise, all the top players played the French since the second world war, and before.
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Old Nov 23rd, 2013, 02:11 AM   #47
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

Poor Chris. Had she played all the Australian Opens and French Opens in the 70s and retired after Wimbledon 81 or even after French Open 83 nearly everyone would think of her as the top choice as GOAT (to those who pick a GOAT today). She would even more slams despite retiring early, and nobody would have ever seen her get owned by Navratilova which I think colors peoples views of her in GOAT debates.
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Old Nov 23rd, 2013, 03:50 AM   #48
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Originally Posted by rollingraces View Post
Poor Chris. Had she played all the Australian Opens and French Opens in the 70s and retired after Wimbledon 81 or even after French Open 83 nearly everyone would think of her as the top choice as GOAT (to those who pick a GOAT today). She would even more slams despite retiring early, and nobody would have ever seen her get owned by Navratilova which I think colors peoples views of her in GOAT debates.
Well, I'm glad she kept playing after 1983, since the 1985 French final remains one of Chris's most heroic matches ever.
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Old Nov 23rd, 2013, 05:34 AM   #49
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Well, I'm glad she kept playing after 1983, since the 1985 French final remains one of Chris's most heroic matches ever.
For sure. Even if the way it turned out has her a big overshadowed in best ever talks, it probably was more personally fulfilling for her. She admits she enjoyed so much seeing how good she could be, and Martina pushed her to be that.
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Old Nov 24th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #50
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

yeah, i can't stand it too when certain over opinionated, super self righteous, super loudmouth former players now commentators who well were hired for being loutmouths and opinionated in the first place wanting to get ratings (i.e. mr. j.p.mcenroe) rattle on like it's a beyond disputable fact that serena is the best of all time? and i might add not having the intelligence or knowledge of intricate tennis history to expound on this belief in the first place, using serena is the greatest of all time line as a quick short punchline,headline, teaser, etcetera...

just as non-sensical as tennis channels' much hyped and so much wronged "greatest 100 players of all time" show...

i think the only and i mean ONLY argument could be made that the actual argument in itself is that a number of players could lay waste to this title and that ONLY which players should even be in the conversation! that is the only argument one can make realistically!which players should be in the conversation and NOT which player IS the greatest!

then you get into the whole "eras' and technology and competition strength or weakness, are you judging titles or actual playing ability and so on and so on and so on...

however, i'm going to put it out there that the argument for goat should involve and in no particular order i might add: serena, graf, navratilova, court and evert AND THAT IS IT!. and yes, special mention in the discussion in regards to seles and connolly.
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Old Nov 25th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #51
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Poor Chris. Had she played all the Australian Opens and French Opens in the 70s and retired after Wimbledon 81 or even after French Open 83 nearly everyone would think of her as the top choice as GOAT (to those who pick a GOAT today). She would even more slams despite retiring early, and nobody would have ever seen her get owned by Navratilova which I think colors peoples views of her in GOAT debates.
Good points RG.


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posted by laschutz just as non-sensical as tennis channels' much hyped and so much wronged "greatest 100 players of all time" show...
Amen to that!
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Old Dec 7th, 2013, 12:41 AM   #52
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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I do cite Court's 3 Wimbledon's as a weak spot (vs 6 for Billie Jean for example-in the same era).

When it comes to the Aussie though I am totally with you Thrust. She simply didn't lose until 1968-to Billie Jean-and that was when she was coming back on tour after a layoff. Her next defeat wasn't until 1975 to Navratilova, and this after Court was 30.

Besides, as Thrust wrote, there were other Aussie top tenners in the 1960s. Some years half the top 10 came from Australia!

Finally, in this year when the Fed Cup celebrates it's 50th birthday, I think it's important that Court is given credit for helping to start the Fed Cup. Nell Hopman got the event organized through her connections, but without Margaret Smith as world #1 Fed Cup would never have gotten off the ground. It was Fed Cup being held in Australia in 1965 that led to the best field in Australian women's history at Kooyong in 1965.
Ironically though, Court and King played in two Wimbledon finals, with Court winning both. Also, I have read that both Court and especially Rosewall, had allergy problems at Wimbledon.
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Old Dec 12th, 2013, 07:43 AM   #53
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

Serena is the greatest to hold up a racket in my opinion with Martina Navratilova being second ( from research ) I
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Old Sep 9th, 2014, 02:42 AM   #54
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

Maybe I'm just the only one who feels this way, but I still have issues with Serena being called the best of all time. I agree that she, at her best, has reached levels that no other woman ever has. At her best, she would defeat anyone else (that's still debatable due to differences in technology and such). However, she has been so inconsistent. Sure, they flashed the stat that she is 18-4 in major finals. Navratilova and Evert lost many more. However, that simply says that Serena has lost many more times than Evert, Navratilova (and other greats) in early rounds of tournaments. To me, that tarnishes her record. 32 times she has fallen in before the semifinals of Slams in 57 events(13 of those were QF finishes). Martina fell only 19 times before the semis in 65 events (I didn't include her 2 losses when she was nearing 50). In 74 Slams, Evert fell 4 times before the semis.

Greatest of all time is not determined in objective terms. In some ways, Serena stands alone. In others, Navratilova, Evert, Graf, Court and others stand out above others. I'm just not ready to put a crown on someone who has so many poor performances as Serena.
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Old Sep 9th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #55
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Greatest of all time is not determined in objective terms. In some ways, Serena stands alone. In others, Navratilova, Evert, Graf, Court and others stand out above others. I'm just not ready to put a crown on someone who has so many poor performances as Serena.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

No one can be "crowned" to borrow your phrase.

Every candidate has holes in her resume. 95 times out of 100 someone pushing to crown a candidate has an agenda because it's a personal favorite.'

What is beyond dispute, to me at least, is that Serena belongs in the conversation. Has anyone else gone 15 years between her first and last majors? I can think of only one other-the great Helen Wills Moody, who won her first major in 1923 and her last in 1938.

Massive congratulations to Serena for breaking into the GOAT pantheon beside Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf.
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Old Sep 9th, 2014, 02:31 PM   #56
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
What is beyond dispute, to me at least, is that Serena belongs in the conversation. Has anyone else gone 15 years between her first and last majors? I can think of only one other-the great Helen Wills Moody, who won her first major in 1923 and her last in 1938.

Massive congratulations to Serena for breaking into the GOAT pantheon beside Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf.
Well said.
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Old Sep 10th, 2014, 06:00 PM   #57
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

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Originally Posted by preacherfan View Post
Maybe I'm just the only one who feels this way, but I still have issues with Serena being called the best of all time. I agree that she, at her best, has reached levels that no other woman ever has. At her best, she would defeat anyone else (that's still debatable due to differences in technology and such). However, she has been so inconsistent. Sure, they flashed the stat that she is 18-4 in major finals. Navratilova and Evert lost many more. However, that simply says that Serena has lost many more times than Evert, Navratilova (and other greats) in early rounds of tournaments. To me, that tarnishes her record. 32 times she has fallen in before the semifinals of Slams in 57 events(13 of those were QF finishes). Martina fell only 19 times before the semis in 65 events (I didn't include her 2 losses when she was nearing 50). In 74 Slams, Evert fell 4 times before the semis.

Greatest of all time is not determined in objective terms. In some ways, Serena stands alone. In others, Navratilova, Evert, Graf, Court and others stand out above others. I'm just not ready to put a crown on someone who has so many poor performances as Serena.
It is a purely subjective matter and every one are entiled to their opinion. Of what i saw in my life, the most dominant player in her peak was by far monica seles winning 8of 11slams before 20 and in total 8of 14 before the stabing and won her first 6 gs finals. So for those who did watch monica at that period is a foul from their part to not even include her in the conversation since serena had ONE slam at the age monica was when she was stubbed,

Last edited by gonzo79 : Sep 10th, 2014 at 10:59 PM.
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Old Sep 11th, 2014, 12:02 PM   #58
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Re: Serena as GOAT???

I agree to what most of the users mentioned in their posts: It's not possible to answer this question totally objective.

In the past for me thinking of an alltime greatest there were a big 4: Navratilova, Graf, Evert and Court. From what I feel right now, I have to open this to a big 5, Serena Williams joining this group.

I'm pretty sure, Seles would have joined this group too without the stabbing.
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