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Old Nov 16th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #196
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

By the way, question that recently came to my mind (Howard can probably answer this best ):

Illness-avoidance aside, is doing her off-season in the Australian heat advantageous or disadvantageous compared to doing it either indoors in the cold (i.e. Germany) or in a moderate climate (Florida, Middle East, wherever players go)?
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Old Nov 16th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #197
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Some people thrive in the heat; others wilt. I put Julia firmly in the "wilt" category. Arriving early is a good strategy for her so that she has time to acclimate. Does she need almost an entire month? Figuring in the expected virus, maybe. I wonder what she'll be doing for a hitting partner these days now that Jilly has hung up her racket.
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Old Nov 16th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #198
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Hopefully she'll hire a male Australian journeyman or something.

Or Jill has a lot of free time. And Nensel used to be a tennis player, too. A really bad one, but a tennis player.
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Old Nov 16th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #199
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatjaS View Post

Or Jill has a lot of free time. And Nensel used to be a tennis player, too. A really bad one, but a tennis player.
I think Jill should concentrate on her new life and keep her gear in storage. That would be the best present she could give to Julia.

Nensel...I guess hitting across the net is better than being a monkey on her back.
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Old Nov 16th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #200
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

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Originally Posted by kadiHH View Post
I think Jill should concentrate on her new life and keep her gear in storage. That would be the best present she could give to Julia.

Nensel...I guess hitting across the net is better than being a monkey on her back.
Someone once wrote in the German part that he couldn't believe Nensel actually used to be a pro when he saw him play in practice with Julia.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 12:46 AM   #201
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatjaS View Post
Someone once wrote in the German part that he couldn't believe Nensel actually used to be a pro when he saw him play in practice with Julia.
Which probably explains some of her technical deficiencies (did she learn her footwork from him?). Although I personally cringe when I hear this saying, there's a reason for it: "If you can't play, coach."
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 01:16 AM   #202
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

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Originally Posted by BillFromRichmond View Post
It was later in the year. The picture I just re posted was taken a month after Miami in Portugal. The one RU90 posted before that was taken in Linz a month ago. She is much thinner.

We are all only speculating at the reason in this case, but with all of these players, an influence may be their coaches. If they feel the player needs to get "quicker" to be able to run down more balls, the easy solution is for them to lose weight. But there may not be a full correlation between the two. I point to Angelique Kerber as an example. She is definitely not "thin", but she is one of the quickest players out there and can run down balls you think she has busy getting to. But its the easy way out for the coach instead of working on the player's footwork and anticipation.

I am not an expert on Julia's game as I have only seen her play twice, but watching the match she lost to Sloane Stephens at New Haven, her strokes seem to be need work as she uses way too much wind up and even at the "reduced" weight, she seemed slow and her footwork put her in a bad position to return balls in too many cases which is deadly when combined with a big swing that then also meets the ball way late.
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Originally Posted by Aravanecaravan View Post
Kerber has legs the size of trees and can run all day long and defend better than most. Offensively, she is a near moron, but she can hold her own defensively, even with a wall.

Julia's technique issues with her helicopter wind up have nothing to do with weight or conditioning, and a coach with even a marble-sized brain would be able to tell that. She can move just fine, for the style of game she is built to play, has long legs and covers the court well enough. Losing 10 pounds or 50 would not help with her technique. That footwork is just something she needs to work on and learn how to play differently when she changes surfaces. But I can tell you this--when she plays her best tennis, she dictates with her forehand and serve, and to do that, you can't be a welterweight. She was at a perfect condition when she won Stuttgart.
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Very good points. Hope she straightens these things out.

Marble brained coaches...I wonder how competent hers and some others are. I used to be an athlete in another sport and there was many charlatans out there masquerading as coaches.
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Originally Posted by kadiHH View Post
Which probably explains some of her technical deficiencies (did she learn her footwork from him?). Although I personally cringe when I hear this saying, there's a reason for it: "If you can't play, coach."
The first three posts were in another thread and were moved here. I am not an expert on Julia and didn't know much about what was going on behind the scenes until I started reading all the posts in this thread a couple of days ago.

I asked before about the competency of her coaching and it seems from what many of you are saying that my "from a distance" observation was on the money. All of this is very alarming. Thanks Katja S, KadiHH and the others for all of this information.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 10:33 AM   #203
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFromRichmond View Post
The first three posts were in another thread and were moved here. I am not an expert on Julia and didn't know much about what was going on behind the scenes until I started reading all the posts in this thread a couple of days ago.

I asked before about the competency of her coaching and it seems from what many of you are saying that my "from a distance" observation was on the money. All of this is very alarming. Thanks Katja S, KadiHH and the others for all of this information.

Three days ago, I had assumed that the whole Goerges matter had been discussed sufficiently - apart from the medical side . In my posting # 176 from 14.Nov. I tried to fill this gap, thereby mainly considering the day of the Oprandi game in Brussels.
I had not been aware that in the meantime new statements of Goerges had led to an renewed discussion. The Goerges matter partially appeared in a new light. Obviously the entire season of Goerges had to be discussed.

On the time axis, with respect to her wrist injury, her Tournament schedule has four phases:
I: Before Brussels
II : After Brussels ,
III: After Stanford ( USA series ) ,
IV : Seoul - Linz .

Phase I:
Facts and figures: Indian Wells to Rome: Two and a half months 9.3. - 21.5. 2013. 8 tournaments. Lost 3x in the first round , 4x in the 2nd round and 1x in the 3rd round. Losses against the number 242, 240 , 102 and 63. Two breaks of 1 and 2 weeks.
Statements of Goerges on this phase: (Quotes from the compilation of KatjaS): 8.6. Problems with the wrist bothered her for months and got worse match by match . ( Question to Katja: Did she spoke of weeks or months? If months, the weakness of her writh should have established or become worse while she played these 8 tournaments. The "match by match"- remark only applies to the pre-Brussels-period, because after Brussels there was no match by match time. Exactly this is said by KadiHH in Nov 13th, 2013: "I am still stuck on the idea that she initially overstressed her wrist through regular play and then did further damage, tearing the capsule in Brussels."
Medical background
a) In Nuremburg Görges said: "Due to my wrist specialist, Dr. Giovanni Broccoli, I had a slight overstressing of the wrist I've had for a few weeks, not serious." "The vegetable quack (she calls him a hand specialist) said I should continue playing and let the therapy work.
If this consultation was made after Brussels, he would have done an unbelievable wrong diagnosis. I can´t believe this. Ergo 1: So she had consulted him before Brussels, and he gave his advice with respect to a milder form of wrist sprain. Ergo 2: That means that after Brussels Nensel and this bunch of Physiotherapist kept stuck to a diagnosis that had been made under completely different preconditions before Brussels. Weird Nr. 1.
b) Was the vegetable quack advice at least in accordance to the medical principles in healing a milder form of wrist sprain, as we can assume for the pre Brussel time?
Yes and no. A mild sprain should be treated with protected activity, supportive splinting or casting, strategies to minimize discomfort and inflammation, and gradual return to activity.* Evaluation by a hand surgeon will help grade the severity of the injury, identify associated injuries, and determine the need for more specific diagnostic testing. For less severe wrist sprains, the ligaments usually heal well. Occasionally, the injury and healing response may cause stiffness and the hand surgeon may recommend stretching and motion exercises to minimize the potential for longer term loss of wrist mobility.*
But the vegetable quack´s advice to proceed playing and the treatment by the team physiotherapists - if given before Brussels - didn´t remove the danger of a severe tear of the capsule. So what they said and did was wrong. They exaggerated the activity part! Imposing maximum stress on a somewhat slightly damaged wrist is nowhere mentioned in the medical counselors as an appropiate therapy. Weird Nr. 2

Phase II:
Facts and figures: French Open to Wimbledon: Two months 21.5.-21.7.: 3 tournaments. Lost 2x in the first round , 1x in the 2nd. Losses against the number 103, 117 , in Paris something below 1000. Three breaks: 2 weeks each after French open and Nuremberg, 4 weeks after Wimbledon.
Statements of Goerges on this phase: This phase is the least clear of all. What Goerges says about this time according to Katja's collection of quotation does not fit together:
It can safely be assumed that the violation in Brussels was a tear of the capsule in her wrist.. A certain "wrist specialist Dr. Giovanni Broccoli" now is mentioned by her for the first time. Diagnosis : Slight overstressing of the wrist she has had for a few weeks, no serious injury. The treatment worked very swiftly." "The wrist is stable", "It's just unfamiliar to play the ball without pain"(8.6. -10.6. Nuremberg). How does it go together that she lost in Nuremberg to the No. 117, with her wrist not producing any problems? Citation of KatjaS Season Review, the part about the loss against Petko: : "...playing a terrible match against Petko, barely being able to make first serves." Weird Nr. 3.
Medical background
assumption one: Consultation of the quack some time before Brussels, as discussed above. Slight overstressung at that time. The capsule injury now happended in Brussels. That means after Brussels Nensel and this bunch of Physiotherapist kept stuck to a diagnosis that had been made weeks before under completely different preconditions. My god, how that? Weird Nr. 4.

But it is not quite shure that Broccoli came in before Brussels. We have to reflect another scenario:
Assumption two: The consultation was after the Oprandi match. This really means: The quack did not recognize a tear of the wrist capsule. Sounds pretty much weird. I still will not believe it. But let's stick to this assumption.
This week there was a radio interviev with Goerges. "So I really could not longer hold a glass or handle the cars gear shift. It became tough for me when I stopped playing. And the hand specialist only said to me that I should continue playing and let treat me."
This "when I stopped playing" sounds as though the consultation was after the 4-week break after Wimbledon. Still a good time to diagnose a tear of the wrist capsule. I find the phrase "... said only to me... " (auf deutsch: "...er meinte zu mir nur, daß ich ...") somewhat remarkable. In german it sounds really casually, incidentally. Didn´t he discuss the matter in detail and explicitly with her? Did she not insist on that, to form her own mind in such an important matter of her sports life, not to say her life at all? As if her attitude was: "That´s the business of my coach". Weird Nr. 5.

Phase III:
Facts and figures: Stanford to US Open: Two months 22.7.-15.9.: 6 tournaments. Lost 5x in the first round , 1x in the 2nd . Inter alia losses against the number 83, 114, 137. No breaks between the tournaments, 3 weeks after the US Open.
Statements of Goerges on this phase: "With my injury it was worse when I didn't do anything." Playing tournaments to keep the wrist in action, as a remedy against her pains, fits best for the U.S. Open series. "In August, at the U.S. OPEN, the pain was gone." Did it really have worked this time? Strange enough. She had already said something like "no pains any longer" in Nuremberg. In the first round of the U.S. Open she lost to the No. 114 - without pains? Weird Nr. 6. Her weak form she explains thus: "... The wrist has hurt for too long and I was very badly affected in my shots. Especially with my forehand, one of the main strokes in my game: when I am a bit hesitant and have no self-confidence, it will be quite difficult. (NDR text 13.11.) When discussing that "....Julia's technique issues with her helicopter wind up have nothing to do with weight or conditioning...", Citacion of Aravanecaravan posting Nr. 156) we will have to reflect her psychological issues as well.
Medical aspect: She still tries to therapy wrist pain the extreme way. This is contrary to all accepted principles. Seeking a second medical opinion is nowhere mentioned. Even the vegetable quack was mentioned only once. The medical amateur team still gives the direction of her treatment. Weird Nr. 6.

Phase IV:
Facts and figures: Seoul to Linz. 3 weeks 16.9. - 8.10. 4 tournaments: Lost 3x 1 Round and 1x 2nd round. Losses against No. 105 and 118. 1 week break after Beijing.
Statements of Goerges on this phase: They provide no new insights. In the current season break cryptical statements about her maturation process, how much she has learned from her mistakes (?). And a new great motivation on the new season. No details. Weird Nr. 7.
Medical aspect: The protective attitude in her game she justifies with the previous long time injury. Hopefully she is right and her game did not suffer due to chronic changes in her wrist. Her team obviously remains unchanged. Weird Nr. 7.

Sorry that I released another long winded post on the Goerges case. But things appear to be rather murky. Twitter style would not help too much.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 11:58 AM   #204
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Another great in-depth analysis from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HH from HH View Post
Question to Katja: Did she spoke of weeks or months?
In this statement (the press release from her homepage) she said weeks:

Quote:
Julia Görges:
"Laut meines Arztes, dem Handgelenksspezialisten Dr. Giovanni Broccoli, hatte ich eine leichte Überbelastung im Handgelenk, die ich schon seit einigen Wochen mit mir rumschleppe. Das Gute ist, dass es keine schwerwiegende Verletzung ist. Jedoch waren die Schmerzen zuletzt sehr unangenehm. Die Behandlungsmethoden haben schnell angeschlagen. Ich bin sehr glücklich,
dass ich wieder Tennis spielen kann und freue mich auf Nürnberg.
Ich bin wieder sehr positiv gestimmt und motiviert für die nächsten Wochen und Monate."
The "months" come from an indirect quote from a later article which I can't find right now.

You raise a few very interesting points, but I'm a bit short on time right now, I'll post a bigger reply later. Particularly the initial time around her injury is very weird indeed - the theory that a wrist strain got diagnosed before the Oprandi match sounds somewhat plausible, but would that mean that she did not consult a doctor between Brussels and the French Open, or even between Brussels and Nuremberg?
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 01:23 PM   #205
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

[quote=KatjaS;35674385]Another great in-depth analysis from you.


... the theory that a wrist strain got diagnosed before the Oprandi match...

Before Brussel, i speak of a "wrist stress"
If the consultation of Broccoli was pre Brussels, he had to look not at a wrist "strain", but for some kind of wrist "stress". Then his diagnosis was not quite wrong. This exculpates Broccoli in no way: he made a somewhat correct diagnosis of wrist stress, but was wrong with his "go on with playing as before" advice, and he could have given further advices what to do in the case of a severe injury what he apparently did not at any time. The way Görges describes the casuality of the visite and the remarks of broccoli, indicates that he played it easy and did not make too much fuss over it.
And additionally this as well would put full blame on the team, that kept stuck to a diagnosis of a "stressed" wrist.

If the consultation of Broccoli was after Brussels, than we deal with a case of terrible false diagnoses of a tear of the capsule , a laceration of the capsule. The full blame as to the handling of the injury immediately (Broccoli) and in the following weeks and months (the team) would again be on both sides.

And Görges did nothing to stem against all this.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #206
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Got it, that's what I was trying to say. So to sum it up, I think these are the big unanswered questions regarding her year 2013, mostly going along your "weird" points:
When did the wrist injury first occur, and in what form?
Before Brussels

Then the question is why she kept on playing, particularly in a tournament a week before a Grand Slam, two matches in one day.

In Brussels

Then what did she mean by all those comments in Nuremberg that seemed to suggest that it had she had been in pain for weeks or even months - but never mentioned again after that
Did she consult a doctor after the Brussels incident?
Yes

Then how can she come to the conclusion to play on with a capsule tear, something that seems counter-intuitive to both laymen's and medical opinions? Was she misdiagnosed? Then why did she not consult another doctor for a second opinion, as her wrist "got worse after my singles" after her R1 loss in Paris?

No

Even if she had already known prior to the Oprandi match in Brussels that she was carrying a wrist injury it would seem to be insane not to consult at least one doctor after such a sudden appearance of intense pain (She's not usually a "crier", and her initial thought was that the wrist was broken). After the Oprandi match she wrote "Unfortunately I had to retire from my second match yesterday due to a wrist injury.i hurt my wrist in the third game+couldnt play without pain anymore!will fly to paris now+let it check all and get treatment!my physio will try everything possible! #rolandgarros #bepositive", which is sort of ambiguous.
Does Dr. Giovanni Broccoli exist?
Yes

Then why can't he be found? What does it say about him as "wrist specialist" that he can't be found either via Google or via phone books. It doesn't really make sense.

No

Why in the world would they invent a doctor, let alone one with such a strange name? Does that mean that she did not consult a doctor at all (why wouldn't she?) and her management made up a cover story to fool her opponents and the public about the state of her injury? Did they consult a diffent doctor and decided to act against his recommendations? But even that (which would be outrageous) does not explain why they would feel to invent a doctor. A doctor is bound by medical confidentiality, so her doctor could not publicly dissent - let alone that she is nowhere near high-profile enough that anybody would bother with it. It makes no sense either.

Without answer to these questions, we don't know which of these scenarios actually took place:
  • She was misdiagnosed and therefore did not get the proper care for her wrist
  • They did not (sufficiently) consult doctors about her injury, possibly underestimating it
  • They ignored the doctor's advice
  • She wasn't that badly injured and now uses it to "cover up" her terrible losses

It remains mysterious.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #207
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Quote:
"Before Brussels
Then the question is why she kept on playing, particularly in a tournament a week before a Grand Slam, two matches in one day."


"Before Brussels
Then the question is why she kept on playing, particularly in a tournament a week before a Grand Slam, two matches in one day."

I´m a big friend of KadiHH´s assumption "I am still stuck on the idea that she initially overstressed her wrist through regular play and then did further damage, tearing the capsule in Brussels." (Nov 13th, 2013). A coach that is hard-boiled enaugh to let his ward continue playing with a perfectly developed wrist capsule tear after Brussels, would laugh at the idea to withdraw her from the pre Brussels tournaments when the stressed (but not yet overstressed or teared) wrist only was hurting somehow. Then game after game the wrist became more and more precarious, and finally: "the pitcher goes to the well until it breaks".

If Goerges saw her doctor at the pre Brussels time, this happened as a precautionary measure.
This would explain the easy way the vegetable quack handled it at her consultation.
And then they never changed their view of the injury whatsoever bad it became in the next half year.

KatjaS: Your idea that they invented the Dr. Brocc story is a really juicy one. But I do not quite exactly know whether I would prefer a faked Brocc-quack to the real existence of this weirdo. I would not miss any of these hypotheses.

Görges seems to be an overly trustfull person that because of her fine looks never experienced grotty, selfish counterparts, having been nicely treated all her life. Aber: "Das Böse ist immer und überall" (The evil is lurking from everywhere). Everybody has to learn lessons from life, and she does it the hard way.

By the way: Poor Julia. She gives an interview and does us a favour in revealing something of her sports life, and then a bunch of media stalker (including me I´m afraid) pick up every little crumb to try an exegesis of her utterings and mutterings.
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Old Nov 17th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #208
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

Great forensic detective work by HH and Katja!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatjaS View Post

The "months" come from an indirect quote from a later article which I can't find right now.
Here's the link to that article from June 11, 2013, 21 days after her injury: http://www.nordbayern.de/nuernberger...urst-1.2963297. Here's the relevant part which tries to explain her straight sets loss at the FO:

"Eine Folge der Probleme mit ihrem Handgelenk, die sie monatelang beschäftigten und von Spiel zu Spiel schlimmer wurden."

Trying to solve the mystery behind Julia's injury is frustrating because:
  1. Journalists are sloppy/inaccurate/unprepared/incapable of doing an in-depth interview and can't cut through the typical BS that athletes almost always spout
  2. Julia was and will most likely continue to be cryptic/vague/dissembling about her physical condition
  3. Her team of advisers gives her nonsensical advice which cannot be understood by any rational person

I always try to read the German source for something first, and given I only have a child's understanding of German, I always questioned whether my interpretation of the articles/interviews was wrong. Then, however, Katja ( who always does a great job) or someone would post a translation and it started to become clear that the problem wasn't understanding the words being said, but rather the fact that the ideas behind the words and actions made no sense at all. Same goes for what Julia says in English--I understand the words she is saying, but what in the world is she talking about?

How does a reasonable person make sense of this senseless season?
  1. Julia has a team which pushes her to play when she's exhausted and ill. Not just play what's required of her, but playing strategically useless matches (unless you consider it useful to play a match as a substitute for practice time, which speaks volumes about the quality of her practice time).
  2. Julia has a team which encourages her to play while injured. Julia suffers a "serious" wrist injury, yet three days later (that we can confirm), she is out on the practice court, her injury noticeably impairing her serve and forehand.
  3. She overstressed her wrist. She tore her capsule. Two competing diagnoses which have different treatment options. What would a reasonable person do? Defer to the more severe condition right? That's not what team Julia did.
  4. Julia and her team stuck to the same strategy expecting different results and never tried a meaningful course correction.

The only thing that makes sense in this senseless scenario is that they stuck with the same game plan for every challenge that this year brought, and that when it came to the wrist injury the assumption must have been that she was going to continue to play no matter what, and they fit her treatment options to support that decision.
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Old Nov 18th, 2013, 03:22 AM   #209
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

There is a lot of discussion going on here, but in regards to Katjas' question it's a good idea to acclimatise to the heat, as Karen also says.

In regards to everything else, clearly a lot of things went wrong this year. Let's hope Julia and her team can make some better choices next year.
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Old Nov 18th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #210
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Re: Julia's 2013 - Season Review and Off-Season Talk

HH has made a very detailed description of the currency in this issue. Still we are not much wiser because of all the open questions which are left but it helped a lot to get the things into a picture.

I´m still doing hard in finger-pointing somebody special here because obviously all involved people here have made mistakes and were working perfectly together in a bad sense. Probably as a result of a relation between routine-blinded people.

However, the relation Nensel-Julia obviously has survived for now. In the sense of working on her and her teams mistakes of the last year I`d really like Julia to read the last few pages of this thread.
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