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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
nothing new there. there have been plenty of studies about this problem and they all showed that immigrants are not a burden on the welfare systems and in fact contribute to them even if only slightly. there are also local people who abuse the welfare systems but it is in both cases only a few bad apples.
I would love to know your solution for the 'few' busloads of bad apples that arrive in my city (Roma from Bulgaria and Romania). The major has freely admitted he doesn't know how to solve the problem and if anyone knows of a solution, to please come forward.

Things the city has done so far:
- provided housing
They stopped doing that because
A) the houses had soon become inhabitable. (kitchen cabinets broken down and set alight to use for heating, faeces all over the floors because they didn't know how to use the bathroom)
B) giving them freebies obviously made this city very attractive for others who want freebies and soon we were overwhelmed

- kids can go to school for free
problem: girls are usually married off at the age of 12 because being a virgin at marriage is the most important thing. "Can you guarantee my child will remain a virgin if she goes to secondary school?" The answer is no, so they stop going to school. The social workers the city hired to help them admit that it might take a few generations before this mentality will change. Most can't read or write.

- hired extra social workers to teach them basic things like how to use a toilet (I wish I was making this up, I'm not)

A few families are constantly squatting. The owners of these buildings obviously aren't too happy. Certain roma have pleaded with the owners to stay, promising they won't start any open fires inside the buildings anymore and saying they can't leave yet because the people at home expect them to come back with lots of money and toys from begging in the streets

One family is now squatting in a building owned by the city and they have allowed them to stay. Several local charities (subsidized by tax money) are paying for their electricity and heating.
Others have now set up another slum. The conditions these people live in are truly shocking. But honestly, what's the solution? Can anyone think of a solution?

Don't tell me these people come here to work. They're generations away from ever finding work, we're still in the process of teaching them basic things about society.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 01:12 PM   #17
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by Londoner View Post

There are Eastern Europeans who claim benefits for children who are actually living in their home country. There are thousands of Eastern Europeans who are known criminals in their home country and who are now in British prisons for crimes committed in Britain, and there is nothing we can do on their release. They haven't paid for the millions being spent on their time in prison.
How bad these Eastern Europeans are. Just wonder where you would find so many people willing to do jobs much below their qualifications in all these warehouses and other jobs. And what about big ammount of Greeks, Italians and Spanish people working in London? You're not mentioning them. Or any other diaspora in the UK.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #18
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

lmao, you can always count on expat to find an article that apparently uses the same source as the article in the op only to draw the completely opposite conclusions. however, the telegraph article states itself:

Quote:
The study states “the vast majority of migrants move to find (or take up) employment”. The report concludes that “the budgetary impact” of claims by “non-active” EU migrants “on national welfare budgets is very low” and adds: “The same is true for costs associated with the take-up of health care by this group.”
but let's create some hysteria, shall we?

and while i don't know which study this is supposed to be i bet it's based on the official statistics you can find on eurostat. and when you see them you might wonder why are the brits creating so much drama about the entry of romania and bulgaria into the european labour market. the vast majority of immigration to the uk was not from other eu countries but from elsewhere. in fact, the uk is not even the top destination for migrants from other eu countries, that would be germany where the majority of immigrants are from the eu (220,000 in 2011). austria with a population of just above 8 milion received more than 60,000 eu immigrants in 2011 (2/3 of all immigrants) and the uk with a population of 62 million received 170,000. spain received 140,000. incidently, spain and other latin countries are the top destination for romanians.

in terms of the number of citizens of other eu countries germany is also far ahead of the uk (nearly twice as many) with spain and france being only slightly ahead of the uk. spain and france are behind the uk in terms of number of their own people living in other eu countries with germany being only slightly ahead of the uk in this regard. which in turn means they are all comfortably ahead of the uk in net migration.

and @ the term "benefit tourists". most people migrate to find work. as the study they cite says itself.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #19
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

Lol, Tine, this is quite a story..
Should not be reason to laugh, but sounds funny nonetheless..
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #20
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

Quote:
Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
I would love to know your solution for the 'few' busloads of bad apples that arrive in my city (Roma from Bulgaria and Romania). The major has freely admitted he doesn't know how to solve the problem and if anyone knows of a solution, to please come forward.

Things the city has done so far:
- provided housing
They stopped doing that because
A) the houses had soon become inhabitable. (kitchen cabinets broken down and set alight to use for heating, faeces all over the floors because they didn't know how to use the bathroom)
B) giving them freebies obviously made this city very attractive for others who want freebies and soon we were overwhelmed

- kids can go to school for free
problem: girls are usually married off at the age of 12 because being a virgin at marriage is the most important thing. "Can you guarantee my child will remain a virgin if she goes to secondary school?" The answer is no, so they stop going to school. The social workers the city hired to help them admit that it might take a few generations before this mentality will change. Most can't read or write.

- hired extra social workers to teach them basic things like how to use a toilet (I wish I was making this up, I'm not)

A few families are constantly squatting. The owners of these buildings obviously aren't too happy. Certain roma have pleaded with the owners to stay, promising they won't start any open fires inside the buildings anymore and saying they can't leave yet because the people at home expect them to come back with lots of money and toys from begging in the streets

One family is now squatting in a building owned by the city and they have allowed them to stay. Several local charities (subsidized by tax money) are paying for their electricity and heating.
Others have now set up another slum. The conditions these people live in are truly shocking. But honestly, what's the solution? Can anyone think of a solution?

Don't tell me these people come here to work. They're generations away from ever finding work, we're still in the process of teaching them basic things about society.
dunno, perhaps you should write an email to the mayor of vienna and ask him how he managed to integrate roma from serbia who have been arriving for decades. i don't know if roma are in a much better position in serbia than in romania and bulgaria and hence are more advanced but i saw a roma slum in belgrade, so i doubt their situation is that much better.

roma people are a very specific group. they were neglected in eastern europe for a long time.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #21
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
How bad these Eastern Europeans are. Just wonder where you would find so many people willing to do jobs much below their qualifications in all these warehouses and other jobs. And what about big ammount of Greeks, Italians and Spanish people working in London? You're not mentioning them. Or any other diaspora in the UK.
I work in construction. When I look at the general construction (so not HVAC, plumbing, electricians, etc., but bricklayers, etc), the large majority are people from Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc. However, they're not immigrants. They work here for a few weeks at a time, then go home for a while, then come back to work for another long stretch.

Meanwhile, unemployment amongst immigrants is extremely high. Our welfare system simply doesn't encourage people enough to start working.
You are right though, generally speaking, EU immigrants do move for work reasons. And that's a good thing. That's whole point of the EU, that people should be able to move freely to regions where there are more work opportunities. However, when it comes to receiving welfare, there should be rules in place that someone is only eligible to receive welfare after working a certain amount of time (like it is in Australia, for example). I don't see how that's discriminatory.

At one of the nursing homes we've built, they've recently employed several Spanish and Portuguese nurses. It's amazing how quickly these nurses managed to learn the language (or the basis at least, enough to have a conversation). These nurses are obviously very intelligent and want to work and move forward. It's distressing to think that such highly qualified people were unable to find work in Spain and Portugal.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #22
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

Quote:
Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
dunno, perhaps you should write an email to the mayor of vienna and ask him how he managed to integrate roma from serbia who have been arriving for decades. i don't know if roma are in a much better position in serbia than in romania and bulgaria and hence are more advanced but i saw a roma slum in belgrade, so i doubt their situation is that much better.

roma people are a very specific group. they were neglected in eastern europe for a long time.
Integration has to come from both sides. No matter what we try, as long as they insist on keeping their kids away from school, there's no way they'll ever integrate. Education is key!
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #23
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
Integration has to come from both sides. No matter what we try, as long as they insist on keeping their kids away from school, there's no way they'll ever integrate. Education is key!
I totally agree with u, education is the key always have always will be.
That's the thing that makes a country richer or poorer on general
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #24
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
I work in construction. When I look at the general construction (so not HVAC, plumbing, electricians, etc., but bricklayers, etc), the large majority are people from Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc. However, they're not immigrants. They work here for a few weeks at a time, then go home for a while, then come back to work for another long stretch.

Meanwhile, unemployment amongst immigrants is extremely high. Our welfare system simply doesn't encourage people enough to start working.
You are right though, generally speaking, EU immigrants do move for work reasons. And that's a good thing. That's whole point of the EU, that people should be able to move freely to regions where there are more work opportunities. However, when it comes to receiving welfare, there should be rules in place that someone is only eligible to receive welfare after working a certain amount of time (like it is in Australia, for example). I don't see how that's discriminatory.

At one of the nursing homes we've built, they've recently employed several Spanish and Portuguese nurses. It's amazing how quickly these nurses managed to learn the language (or the basis at least, enough to have a conversation). These nurses are obviously very intelligent and want to work and move forward. It's distressing to think that such highly qualified people were unable to find work in Spain and Portugal.
Yeah, they're working in that way to avoid the local companies to pay the taxes, all these temporary job agencies are abusing labour law. What immigrants? Cause as far as I know, as such problems are in area of my education and interests, most of the people from EE leave their countries to work, and nearly all of them are leaving with already organised legal job. Of course there was a big problem with migration to the UK, when many people thought that it's Eldorado, and many unprepared without english basics left their countries, but things are getting better now. Also my friend who is living in Middlesborough said that he have seen many Poles (mostly them) and in his opinion it's a very hardworking nation. Luckilly there are not so many people like Londoner.
Maybe you think about non-EU members, who are not working at all, just demanding and they are abusing welfare for good twenty years. Absurds like building mosques just next to the typical european old town.
So to me - it's ok if the citizens of the EU are moving to seek jobs in different countries, we should just cut off "out-of-Europe" migration, cause because of it we'll suffer many problems - as they do not want to assimilate.

Well, do you know in what conditions polish seasonal workers live in the Netherlands? How their work time is abused? However some legal steps are taken now.

And yes, in many EE countries - nurses are graduating from the medical university (sic!) with a Master degree and with language skills (mostly english or german), cause they prefer to work for real money, not for 400 euros.
And also yes - it's sick that with two majors, with some language skills, EE can't find job for decent money in their homecountries, but that's the price they have to pay for being "sold" to Eastern Bloc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
Integration has to come from both sides. No matter what we try, as long as they insist on keeping their kids away from school, there's no way they'll ever integrate. Education is key!
I think it's a different thing for Roma people. They are free spirits. But of course you are right - the key is to assimilate, to still have your own culture, but in the same time - to know the culture of the country you're living and to accept its habits/culture, learn language of that country, something about its history.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #25
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

As if it is kind of unrelated..
NF is now officially the largest party in France. According to the last polls. Socs must be pleased..
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #26
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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I would love to know your solution for the 'few' busloads of bad apples that arrive in my city (Roma from Bulgaria and Romania).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
I think it's a different thing for Roma people. They are free spirits. But of course you are right - the key is to assimilate, to still have your own culture, but in the same time - to know the culture of the country you're living and to accept its habits/culture, learn language of that country, something about its history.
I hear you, guys.

Unfortunately, the Roma are quite hard to assimilate. In my country (Czech R.), they are considered as the only 'problematic' minority and just a few months ago there were a few anti-Roma rallies in some regional towns.

We have no problems with large Slovak, Ukrainian or Vietnamese minorities, who normally work or do business. The Roma are different though and their full assimilation (if ever) is still gonna be a long haul.
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Old Oct 14th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #27
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

We don't have much of a welfare system here.

We have now reasonable quantities of Somalis, Zims, Central Africans making their way here, for a better life, but infact end up in the townships as alien citizens and end up being targets of xenophobia from South African blacks. Their lives don't improve, and end up becoming a problem of the host country.

They become street people in the city trying to make a few rand selling some shit or hand made crap.

Ít's very hard here to make something of yourself if your another African, chances of you having a little shop, is about as much chance of that shop being burnt down, South African Blacks don't appreciate other blacks making something of themselves in their own country.

They leave their problems behind in their home country, but end up becoming a problem for their host country. Very little gets done. Easy as she goes, just create another informal settlement on the periphery.
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Old Oct 15th, 2013, 06:00 AM   #28
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

A Canadian study say it cost 23 billions/year to our country...
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Old Oct 15th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #29
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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A Canadian study say it cost 23 billions/year to our country...
The title is misleading. It should EU migrants no burden on welfare system.

I think if you take all migrants into account, the figures will probably be different.
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Old Oct 15th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #30
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Re: Migrants no burden on welfare system, study says

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I hear you, guys.

Unfortunately, the Roma are quite hard to assimilate. In my country (Czech R.), they are considered as the only 'problematic' minority and just a few months ago there were a few anti-Roma rallies in some regional towns.

We have no problems with large Slovak, Ukrainian or Vietnamese minorities, who normally work or do business. The Roma are different though and their full assimilation (if ever) is still gonna be a long haul.
Well I think that even bigger problems with Roma people were in Slovak Republic. And you are right that they are hard to assimilate, but with people like Vera Bila who is introducing roma's beautiful culture to wider audience, or with polish-roma poet Papusza (Kalove Vary Film Festival winner) it helps to understand them.
I would be really shocked if you would have problems with Slovaks 20 years ago you were one country
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