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Old Jul 24th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #4306
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Minella, Stephens, Petrova, Lisicki, Bartoli and Wozniacki confirmed for Luxembourg Open in October

got it from twitter some of the names that will be playing there, tough field but still a long way too go some might WD But I think if caro can play her best she can win it
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Old Jul 24th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #4307
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I agree with ozza that caro need too start putting herself in the position for those opportunity at the slam but I think the most is she need too make those improvement in her game I think her serve need improvement the most & her backhand need too get back to where it was, THat one main reason why O I like too see a coach step in an help her.
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 12:02 AM   #4308
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Exactly.

Her US hard court schedule is not the problem. Her best slam is the USO and she got F SF SF 2009 - 2011. No-one will ever convince me that was a problem and she underperformed there. And I definitely could never understand this idea of playing at Stanford earlier than she intended. But when she had that injury at Wimbledon it makes even less sense to me.

The best way of making slams a priority is to start winning matches and tournaments everywhere. Not tinkering around with a US HC schedule that brought her those F SF SF USO grand slam results.

One of the worst mistakes I think team Wozniacki made in 2012 was to dismiss all those bad results saying these did not matter. Only the slams mattered now and the aim was to peak at the slams. Surprise surprise - good results at slams did not just magically appear out of a hat and were what could be expected from her level of play at the other tournaments.

Of course slams is a priority in that she hasn't got one and she got the #1. A goal but a pipedream at the moment. The immediate concern is this dreadful run of early defeats.
I dont know if she's capable of being as consistent as she was. That might be why they say slams are the priority - because she doesnt do well in the regular tournaments anymore
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #4309
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Exactly.

Her US hard court schedule is not the problem. Her best slam is the USO and she got F SF SF 2009 - 2011. No-one will ever convince me that was a problem and she underperformed there. And I definitely could never understand this idea of playing at Stanford earlier than she intended. But when she had that injury at Wimbledon it makes even less sense to me.

The best way of making slams a priority is to start winning matches and tournaments everywhere. Not tinkering around with a US HC schedule that brought her those F SF SF USO grand slam results.

One of the worst mistakes I think team Wozniacki made in 2012 was to dismiss all those bad results saying these did not matter. Only the slams mattered now and the aim was to peak at the slams. Surprise surprise - good results at slams did not just magically appear out of a hat and were what could be expected from her level of play at the other tournaments.

Of course slams is a priority in that she hasn't got one and she got the #1. A goal but a pipedream at the moment. The immediate concern is this dreadful run of early defeats.
I've bolded out a couple of things here:

She had one massive opportunity vs Zvonareva, and posted a very abject performance, that's not good for one of the biggest matches of your career. You have to remember Caroline was better than the vast majority of the field when she posted this set of results. It's like saying Serena could play 3 straight weeks going into every major, she's still post overall good results, but her results at grand slams would decline as a result.

The second is a key thing for me. I know they said this, but for me this was just words, a cover for her form falling off the cliff. It was said when she was in a slump, at no point have they ever actually tried peaking for grand slams, what did they actually change in terms of events she was playing?

Her grand slam results have nearly always been below her tour results (2009 maybe arguable), her best results ever over a year period was QF, R4, SF, SF. That's nothing outstanding for a player who won 5 Tier I's in 2 years.

The reason for Stanford being highly recommended is Caro needs ranking points. This is a weak premier on her best surface, that isn't in the worst calendar spot ever. In her current situation she doesn't really want to be passing up such an opportunity. Caro is under big pressure the next month to deliver big results if she wants to stay top 10, which we know from last year she does, regardless if she starts releasing statements of she's "not worried about her ranking drop".

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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #4310
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
I've bolded out a couple of things here:

She had one massive opportunity vs Zvonareva, and posted a very abject performance, that's not good for one of the biggest matches of your career. ... Caro is under big pressure the next month to deliver big results if she wants to stay top 10, which we know from last year she does, regardless if she starts releasing statements of she's "not worried about her ranking drop".
Zvonareva was in slam finals, a YEC final, won IW and was a YE #2.
She's not awful. Its just that now it looks like Caro had a small window, so the Zvonareva SF and Li SF now look like big losses.
But in reality, Kim played very well in that USO final. Maybe the Li loss with matchpoint was closest to a slam win, because Kim never played the AO as well as the USO.

But every good player has some slam losses at least as bad as losing to Zvonareva.
The problem is that getting to a slam semi to face a nonslam winner seems far away now
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #4311
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Zvonareva was in slam finals, a YEC final, won IW and was a YE #2.
She's not awful. Its just that now it looks like Caro had a small window, so the Zvonareva SF and Li SF now look like big losses.
But in reality, Kim played very well in that USO final. Maybe the Li loss with matchpoint was closest to a slam win, because Kim never played the AO as well as the USO.

But every good player has some slam losses at least as bad as losing to Zvonareva.
The problem is that getting to a slam semi to face a nonslam winner seems far away now
Of course Zvonareva is not a gimme, neither is Na Li, but these are the types of matches you face at latter stages of grand slams that are very winnable (for both players this is true), and are disappointing if you don't win them. The Zvonareva one specifically, this was Caro at her very best, she came in having won 3 titles in the last 4 weeks, including beating Zvonareva 6-3, 6-2. Her performance vs Zvonareva in the USO though was abject, and far from her best. Did it have something to do with having played 4 weeks in a row on 2 different continents coming in? Who knows, but Caro was very flat this match, something you can't afford in grand slam semi-finals.

You highlight the problem anyway. Everyone has these losses, it's just for most players they aren't career defining moments, because they also won plenty of these matches and probably won grand slams. If Caro ever wins a grand slam, these losses will be forgotten, because eventually she got over the hill.

Anyway here are some comparisons for their best year results at grand slams from recent times:
Caro QF, R4, SF, SF (17)
Safina SF, F, F, SF (22)
Jankovic SF, SF, R4, F (19)
Zvonareva F, F, SF, R4 (20)
Dementieva QF, SF, SF, SF (19) [I know she made 2 finals in 2004, but it was in non-comparable times]

These are the most famous players who haven't won grand slams I can think of in recent times. This highlights in general that Caro has under-performed at grand slams.

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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #4312
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Yeah, and probably the 2 key underperforming slams were 2011 losses to Hantuchova & Cibulkova. At the time Caro was #1 by a wide margin, but without a slam, and those 2 early losses probably increased criticism of her, and led to her being more aggressive with her forehand and not being as steady afterwards.
But considering the adversity a lot of other players had, there's no reason why Caroline has been unable to get back near where she was.
Some criticism is not adversity, not like major surgery is adversity
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #4313
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozza View Post
I've bolded out a couple of things here:

She had one massive opportunity vs Zvonareva, and posted a very abject performance, that's not good for one of the biggest matches of your career. You have to remember Caroline was better than the vast majority of the field when she posted this set of results. It's like saying Serena could play 3 straight weeks going into every major, she's still post overall good results, but her results at grand slams would decline as a result.

The second is a key thing for me. I know they said this, but for me this was just words, a cover for her form falling off the cliff. It was said when she was in a slump, at no point have they ever actually tried peaking for grand slams, what did they actually change in terms of events she was playing?

Her grand slam results have nearly always been below her tour results (2009 maybe arguable), her best results ever over a year period was QF, R4, SF, SF. That's nothing outstanding for a player who won 5 Tier I's in 2 years.
No she has not underferformed at hard court slams and particularly the USO. with F, SF, SF in 2009-2011. If you take the betting odds at the start - she exceeded or at worst equalled them. In 2009 she way surpassed expectations. 2010 - all the talk was Kim and Pova. They were expected to make the Final. All the experts said that. Noone picked Caro. And the booking odds those two had shortest odds no matter where you went. And as for 2011 where she lost in the 1st round at Cinci and Rogers Cup - you think she underperformed at USO compared to those tournaments before because she didn't beat Serena in the SF In my book she exceeded all my expectations at USO. It's overall where she ends up compared to what the odds say and hence where she was expected to end up that is the basic definition of whether a player underferforms or not.

Of course if you want to talk about Wimbledon and RG- her slam results have not been good. But she doesn't do great on those surfaces in the other tournaments. Yeah she won Wimbledon 2009 befoe she was on the Radar and expected to do much at Wimbledon. And then she has a couple of 1st round losses at Eastbourne. I'll grant that betting odds say she should have made QF at those slams. But people would still have parrotted she underperforms at slams even if she'd reached QFs at hose slams. I'd rather her meet or exceed her expections at USO than just make QF at those slams where her odds say she should have made.

As for your other point that when team Caro said targetting slams as their priorty in 2012 - you state that was just words and they didn't do that - again I disagree. You can have your opinion but it is opinion and not fact. Just because they didn't have what you think their schedule should be to target slams doesn't prove they weren't doing that. For starters - she was mucking about with all her serves being 2nd serves on the clay court tournaments as an experiment that Piotr wanted to try. That for a start didn't seem to be taking those tournaments seriously enough and a disaster as far as I'm concerned. The whole mindset seemed to be not to worry about bad results at tournements. I am quite certain they took their eye off the ball at tournaments with the "priority is slams" view. As certain as you are with the opposite view that if they hadn't changed their schedule to what you personally think it should be - that they didn't mean what they were saying about targetting slams.
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 11:32 PM   #4314
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I wanted too ask is there a a big chance of Caroline falling out the top 10 this hardcourt season ? I don't know how many point she have too defend I hope not & what the chances of her moving up the ranking
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #4315
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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I wanted too ask is there a a big chance of Caroline falling out the top 10 this hardcourt season ? I don't know how many point she have too defend I hope not & what the chances of her moving up the ranking
Very big chance she falls out of the top 10 this summer.
She's coming in having lost her 1st or 2nd match at 8 of her last 9 tournaments. The only tournament in the last 4 months that she won more than 1 match, she served for a match against Hampton and lost.

So her form is as bad as I can remember. She used to have one bad result about every 10 tournaments. Now its closer to 9 of 10.

Whatever the reasons - figured her out, Rory, she's rich & doesnt care - doesnt matter whst the reason is, she just isnt getting any results, just a couple of tournaments in spring where big 3 player withdrew from her section.
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Old Jul 25th, 2013, 11:54 PM   #4316
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I hope she don't fall out the top 10 but if she does I know come next year she can play any event so that may be good for her too play as many International that she like too but like I said I don't want that too happen to her she need too find some form as well as get an coach too improve hopefully she still get one by the end of the year. I do know she don't have nothing to defend at the U.S. Open but that something she will have too take advantage of knowing she can gain points there.
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Old Jul 26th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #4317
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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I wanted too ask is there a a big chance of Caroline falling out the top 10 this hardcourt season ? I don't know how many point she have too defend I hope not & what the chances of her moving up the ranking
Obviously it depends on her results. If she totally bombs then yes she will fall out of top 10, but I don't think she will totally bomb. She defends 900 points, but she has a 440 point gap to number 11. Imo if she falls out of top 10 it's going to be on the very last week of the season. It's there she could be in big trouble. She's going into Luxembourg with 725 points to defend, well that's not possible, so she's in trouble there. She has to build or keep a cushion to number 11 before the last week, or she will be falling out of top 10 at the last.
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Old Jul 26th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #4318
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by Trey View Post
I wanted too ask is there a a big chance of Caroline falling out the top 10 this hardcourt season ? I don't know how many point she have too defend I hope not & what the chances of her moving up the ranking
It amazes me actually that she's still in the top #10. She hasn't been playing like a top 10 player for much of the time. I do believe the race gives a better perspective. Since IW- the results have just been terrible. So I don't really look at the rankings when this happens hoping she hasn't dropped too much. But every time I do or someone tells me - I always think (without actually wanting a detailed explanation) how the hell is she still so high.

What would cheer me up is not the rankings but her really having a consistent patch of playing really well and winning her matches.
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Old Jul 26th, 2013, 12:56 AM   #4319
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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No she has not underferformed at hard court slams and particularly the USO. with F, SF, SF in 2009-2011. If you take the betting odds at the start - she exceeded or at worst equalled them. In 2009 she way surpassed expectations. 2010 - all the talk was Kim and Pova. They were expected to make the Final. All the experts said that. Noone picked Caro. And the booking odds those two had shortest odds no matter where you went. And as for 2011 where she lost in the 1st round at Cinci and Rogers Cup - you think she underperformed at USO compared to those tournaments before because she didn't beat Serena in the SF In my book she exceeded all my expectations at USO. It's overall where she ends up compared to what the odds say and hence where she was expected to end up that is the basic definition of whether a player underferforms or not.

Of course if you want to talk about Wimbledon and RG- her slam results have not been good. But she doesn't do great on those surfaces in the other tournaments. Yeah she won Wimbledon 2009 befoe she was on the Radar and expected to do much at Wimbledon. And then she has a couple of 1st round losses at Eastbourne. I'll grant that betting odds say she should have made QF at those slams. But people would still have parrotted she underperforms at slams even if she'd reached QFs at hose slams. I'd rather her meet or exceed her expections at USO than just make QF at those slams where her odds say she should have made.

As for your other point that when team Caro said targetting slams as their priorty in 2012 - you state that was just words and they didn't do that - again I disagree. You can have your opinion but it is opinion and not fact. Just because they didn't have what you think their schedule should be to target slams doesn't prove they weren't doing that. For starters - she was mucking about with all her serves being 2nd serves on the clay court tournaments as an experiment that Piotr wanted to try. That for a start didn't seem to be taking those tournaments seriously enough and a disaster as far as I'm concerned. The whole mindset seemed to be not to worry about bad results at tournements. I am quite certain they took their eye off the ball at tournaments with the "priority is slams" view. As certain as you are with the opposite view that if they hadn't changed their schedule to what you personally think it should be - that they didn't mean what they were saying about targetting slams.
Betting odds aren't great for these purposes, but Caro was 2nd favourite for USO 2010, going out in the SF was underachieving using the oddsmakers odds. Don't know where you got Sharapova was expected to make the final from, Wozniacki started as a 57.8% favourite to beat Sharapova in R4. She was in the top 4 favourites for USO 2011, so making SF was only equaling expectations. If we are really using this as our guide then Caro has probably exceeded expectations like once ever in grand slams, and not met expectations at the overwhelming majority. Overall at hard court slams, Caro has still underachieved. She has underachieved every year in Australia using the betting odds except maybe for 2008 (I can't find odds for this far back and no-one I know seems to have them). What the "experts" are saying are the favourites on TV, doesn't always resemble the actual favourites.

Whatever they say, anyone who plays Olympics, Montreal, Cincinnati, New Haven on 2 different continents and 2 different surfaces going into historically their best grand slam is not prioritising the grand slam. Everyone is trying things to improve, the problem I have with buying into this point of view, at this point she'd already started falling down the rankings, gone through coaches, heavily struggling on the court, she needed defence mechanisms to the press. Besides she was in rapid decline at this point, they needed to be trying things on the court to halt the slide. It's easy to claim you took your eye off the ball if you lost, it's a defence for why you lost, that you were "trying things". They even do this now, saying stuff like she's trying to be more aggressive so she can succeed at the grand slams, that's just a cover up though, she isn't going into all these tournaments not caring if she loses or not like you've seen Serena do at events in the past, it was quite clear at Indian Wells what these tournaments still mean to her (look at her reaction after beating Kerber).

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Old Jul 26th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #4320
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Caro is defending 2270 points between now and the end of the year. She only has 7 events left on her schedule (and can't add anymore unless she qualifies for Istanbul or Sofia). To put in perspective how much this, Caro this year has earned 2075 points and has played 16 events.

I also forgot to add in my previous rankings post, Caro has to come out of the USO with at least a 280 point gap over #11, because post-USO the points from Seoul come off the Monday Tokyo starts, which she is not defending.
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