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Old May 3rd, 2013, 04:46 PM   #2596
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
C'mon now, Seles was stabbed and her legacy robbed, how can you be harsh or criticize her
When you have 'mouthy friends', IMG backing, billionaire boy friends, 'available' to the media and take liberties at changing your narrative (for whatever reason), it is easy to manipulate anything, even history.....
thanks for this direct answer. Taking anything away from Monica what relatiwizes the stabbing is embarrassing
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 06:36 PM   #2597
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
C'mon now, Seles was stabbed and her legacy robbed, how can you be harsh or criticize her
When you have 'mouthy friends', IMG backing, billionaire boy friends, 'available' to the media and take liberties at changing your narrative (for whatever reason), it is easy to manipulate anything, even history.....
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 06:51 PM   #2598
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by XTN View Post
I agree with this. I read somewhere on CNNSI - although I can't find the article anymore so maybe it was taken down? - that Steffi should have made more of an effort to reach out to Monica.
And this is the worst of the revisionist history. Steffi and other players and WTA officials did try to reach out to Monica. They called. They faxed. They wrote old-fashioned letters. But the results were always the same: Monica didn't take the calls and never returned the faxes or letters. As Gabriela Sabatini put it best: "Eventually you give up trying." Even when Evert bumped into her on that flight to Paris in 1995 and went over just to say hello, the IMG agent (probably Tolleson) tried to hide her and when that didn't work, Monica Seles got up and went to the back of the plane. I mean, if someone never takes your calls, never returns your messages, tries to evade you if you meet her, the rational interpretation of that is: Leave me alone, I don't want to talk to you.

The other thing to remember is that Monica was not particularly popular in the locker room. While people felt bad for her and no one wanted it to happen to her, it didn't suddenly make people like her. I mean, think of a co-worker with whom you don't feel much friendship, maybe even one who gets on your nerves a lot and vice versa. The only thing you have --and ever will have-- in common is work. Imagine something bad happens to that co-worker. You're not glad it happened. But will you suddenly be going out of your way to be friends with this person? Probably not. So when you combine Monica's public complaints that nobody called or wrote (even though people were calling and writing) with not being well-liked to begin with, the other players are quickly going to quit trying.
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 07:25 PM   #2599
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by bia View Post
I've also had this feeling that IMG was, and is, somehow responsible for the developing of this story through the years.
If Steffi Graf had been an IMG client, even if this all played out the same, we would be reading "Such a shame about Monica, but Graf is GOAT" articles instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bia View Post
I still remember many critics towards Seles at the beginning, many controversial stories about her behavior after the stabbing. I remember reporters saying on her comeback that she was playing better than ever. I remember in particular an article by an italian reporter who described very well why he couldn't stand her at all, it was around the year 2000 something. After that, don't know why, it seemed to me that it was a must not to talk badly about Seles. That same reporter wrote a couple of other articles about her, he wasn't so warm with her, but no more harsh critics.
I, too, remember an amount of criticism from the media directed at Monica until she finally returned. I also remember the hype surrounding her return and how well she was playing (even a few articles that suggested Steffi should retire before she gets embarrassed). And thanks to the wonders of digitized newspaper archives, I have access to millions of articles from international sources, ones that I never dreamed of having access to at the time, and so the changes to the narrative are perfectly traceable. It might make for an interesting research project; for instance, when did journalists stop pointing out that people did try to contact Monica and just present her assertions as fact, etc. I wonder how much IMG would pay me not to do it.
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 08:07 PM   #2600
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I don't think that Evert played second fiddle to Martina for most of her career. People just tend to focus on Martina's 13 match winning streak over Chris and voilà - that's the Martina/Chris rivalry in a nutshell for them. But there were periods when Chris dominated Martina, periods when Martina dominated Chris and periods when it was more or less even.
I agree with this. But I guess this is sort of also my point. In the same way that people focus on Martina beating Chris 13 times in a row, Martina winning 6 Grand Slam titles in 83-84 (similar to Seles' 91-92), and Martina leading her Grand Slam H2H against Chris 14-8 (10-4 in finals, according to wikipedia), people also tend to forget the points you make that Steffi remained competitive against Monica even during Seles' dominance of the tour.

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
You forgot the part where Seles is 4 1/2 years younger than Graf. Graf had a massive head start in everything and in 1989 accumulated 3 wins against a 15-year-old playing her first full year on the pro tour.
Well, while chris Evert and Martina are separated by only two years and they started playing professionally at around the same time, Chris won 7 Grand Slam titles before Martina won her first. After 1984, I reckon most people must have thought that that Martina would just keep on winning because by then she seemed to have the upper hand over Evert and everyone else. But somehow Evert, at the age of 31 in 1984, still managed to win over Martina again after that and even won 3 more Grand Slam events from 1984 onwards.

I'm not saying it's an exact comparison. All I'm saying is that while one person may have shown absolute dominance over another for a certain period of time doesn't mean it will continue in that same way throughout the rest of their careers.

In any case, I'd like to highlight what Chrissie-fan said:

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
But when some bloggers and even people like Pam Shriver almost casually start taking away slams from Graf and assume that Seles would have won everything under the sun, that's not fair to Graf either. To be honest, there is no right answer to the question of how the Graf/Seles rivalry would have played itself out over the years. We just don't know. All we know for sure is that we as tennis fans were robbed of one of the great rivalries in history.
I agree with this. And as I've said, even if Seles ended up with 20 or more titles and Graf ended up with 15, Graf would still have been an all-time great. I just wish these bloggers, writers, and tennis players at least acknowledge this. The way things are being written now, it's almost like Graf has no place among the legends of tennis.
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 08:19 PM   #2601
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Ms. Anthropic View Post
If Steffi Graf had been an IMG client, even if this all played out the same, we would be reading "Such a shame about Monica, but Graf is GOAT" articles instead.



I, too, remember an amount of criticism from the media directed at Monica until she finally returned. I also remember the hype surrounding her return and how well she was playing (even a few articles that suggested Steffi should retire before she gets embarrassed). And thanks to the wonders of digitized newspaper archives, I have access to millions of articles from international sources, ones that I never dreamed of having access to at the time, and so the changes to the narrative are perfectly traceable. It might make for an interesting research project; for instance, when did journalists stop pointing out that people did try to contact Monica and just present her assertions as fact, etc. I wonder how much IMG would pay me not to do it.
Wow, that should be interesting stuff, do it please! So, for the next anniversary , I will have some articles to show, just in case. You know, in the last couple of days I've been arguing with some Seles fans on an italian forum and all the informations they had where taken from Monica's book.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 01:55 AM   #2602
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Kentucky 'Steffi' style

http://www.google.com/hostednews/get...ocId=167980714

Know I am beating this to death but couldn't resist...
Headline news on Tennis.com tomorrow....
Martina : Shame on Steffi, how dare she look awesome on the red carpet on the eve of..
If not for the stabbing, Seles could have looked even better.....
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Old May 4th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #2603
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTN View Post
I'm not saying it's an exact comparison. All I'm saying is that while one person may have shown absolute dominance over another for a certain period of time doesn't mean it will continue in that same way throughout the rest of their careers.

In any case, I'd like to highlight what Chrissie-fan said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Good point about Seles being younger. Look, I'm not trying to take anything away from Monica - I'm just trying to be fair. But when some bloggers and even people like Pam Shriver almost casually start taking away slams from Graf and assume that Seles would have won everything under the sun, that's not fair to Graf either. To be honest, there is no right answer to the question of how the Graf/Seles rivalry would have played itself out over the years. We just don't know. All we know for sure is that we as tennis fans were robbed of one of the great rivalries in history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XTN View Post
I agree with this. And as I've said, even if Seles ended up with 20 or more titles and Graf ended up with 15, Graf would still have been an all-time great. I just wish these bloggers, writers, and tennis players at least acknowledge this. The way things are being written now, it's almost like Graf has no place among the legends of tennis.
what really disturbs me the most in heated debates is the arrogance of some Graf- and Seles-extremists and biased so-called experts. Taking away titles, feelings, motives, public-restricted/closed positive player-to player relations. Often this all then peaks in imputations, verbal attacs, nationalistic thoughts, fanbase-hate.
I guess this is what Günther Parche really wanted to reach. Not just to get Monica down but to separate tennis fans and to cut any affection.

At least there are really some sensible and sensitive minds in here to cool it down sometimes with distinctive and ambivalent opinions...







sympathy and respect



.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #2604
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Interesting discussion

Steff_forever I think I've already told you it 5times, but I Do really love your avatar pic
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Old May 4th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #2605
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Interesting discussion

Steff_forever I think I've already told you it 5times, but I Do really love your avatar pic
yeah, you already told me

Kubrick's 2001 space odyssey is one of my favourite science fiction films and I LOVE the voice of supercomputer hal

So pls keep your avatar...
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Old May 4th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #2606
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by bia View Post
Wow, that should be interesting stuff, do it please! So, for the next anniversary , I will have some articles to show, just in case. You know, in the last couple of days I've been arguing with some Seles fans on an italian forum and all the informations they had where taken from Monica's book.
For the next anniversary, I don't expect much fuss. I mean, it has already subsided to one "real" article, and apart from Navratilova's comments, almost everything else in it was old quotes.

For the first installment in the "change in the narrative" series, please see:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/12/sp...ted=all&src=pm

Here we are reminded that the spring of 1993 was not going great for Monica. In fact, she would even miss her expected return at Barcelona. We are reminded, by her own admission, that she was not a "play through anything" type of competitor. Does she sound like she's willing to battle through for a 20+ grand slam career? Or does she sound more like she's heading for a Courier-like burn-out, if not a Capriati-like or Jaeger-like spin-out?
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Old May 4th, 2013, 07:12 PM   #2607
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
I do declare Steffi pulls off the Southern belle look surprisingly well. At least she isn't mixing geometric patterns with floral prints, as at certain times in the past. (The Eighties were not a sartorial high point for anyone...)
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Old May 4th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #2608
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Ms. Anthropic View Post
I do declare Steffi pulls off the Southern belle look surprisingly well. At least she isn't mixing geometric patterns with floral prints, as at certain times in the past. (The Eighties were not a sartorial high point for anyone...)
True and keep in mind, she has a fashion expert in her home now (Marti Agassi).
Have to say, she looks better than the 'super model' in these pictures.

http://the-slice.com/2013/05/graf-ju...entucky-derby/
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Old May 5th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #2609
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Watch the slideshow here, look at Jaz! http://www.indiatimes.com/sports/ten...8-7.html#photo

By the way, it happens that Steffi picked the winner horse at the derby! How do you explain this to Navratilova!? I mean, everything she touches it comes to gold! https://www.facebook.com/officialsteffigraf
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Old May 5th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #2610
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Hey Steffi Fans,

I grew up playing Tennis is the Steffi era of dominance and collected a bunch of magazines(12) here
selling them all for a great price for those that have a collection and are missing one

PM me and I'll send you a link to the auction
Cheers alls
Steve
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