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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #91
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
Where did I claim that they were equal?

If a state is self-governed (or sovereign), it is independent.
why did you cut off the rest of my post? it explains well why a country is not independent if the country it want to become independent from can prevent it from doing what every other country can do.

and self-governed and independent are not the same things.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #92
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
why did you cut off the rest of my post? it explains well why a country is not independent if the country it want to become independent from can prevent it from doing what every other country can do.

and self-governed and independent are not the same things.
Yes, they are.

Also, the stuff in the rest of your post is not necessary for independence.

Quote:
the question is if international organisations recognise you, can you travel with the documents issued by your state institutions, whether your sportspeople can compete under your country's flag, how much the foreign companies trust your institutions. now, this is undenialble. kosovo is not recognised by many more countries than just serbia. it includes 5 countries of the european union, 4 nato countries (institutions kosovo wants to join), nearly 100 un members. kosovo can't be present at the olympics, can't join fifa and uefa. and many other things. there are other similar cases around the world.
Again, imagine that all of these international organizations stop recognizing the independence of the USA. Would then USA then become non-independent? If Americans can't compete under the US flag, would the USA cease to be independent? No. And this is undeniable.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #93
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
This has nothing to do with USA's independence. Kosovo was the part of Yugoslavia, it had a certain autonomy, but it wasn't a state, it was the part of Serbian state. In the beginning of the nineties Albanians separatists started fighting for the independence (it wasn't the first attempt, but this time it was getting more serious). In that period, the whole world was on Serbian side about that. But the war started anyway and things got out of control. In 1999 NATO intervened and Kosovo is practically independent since then. Since it was illegal, many were afraid that there would be a domino effect, because this is not a unique case in the world.

But I wouldn't worry, it won't happen to any developed country.
You don't understand the purpose of that post. It's to establish that recognition of independence is not necessary for a state to actually be independent.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #94
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
Yes, they are.

Also, the stuff in the rest of your post is not necessary for independence.



Again, imagine that all of these international organizations stop recognizing the independence of the USA. Would then USA then become non-independent? If Americans can't compete under the US flag, would the USA cease to be independent? No. And this is undeniable.


i know you come from a big country, so you probably don't understand this but becoming a part of those international organisations means a lot to small ones. even so, if the us would get isolated because noone is recognising it as a country it would be affected by it soon enough. but a much smaller country would be hit much harder. being "independent", ironically, depends if others accept you and interract with you in that way. and presently the un membership opens you all doors.

you are arguing semantics rather than practical things. uncontacted tribes in amazonia are also independent but that is completely irrelevant to the question here.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:04 PM   #95
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
You don't understand the purpose of that post. It's to establish that recognition of independence is not necessary for a state to actually be independent.
I understood the purpose, I just didn't like the comparison. It's not even a question if it's independent or not. Of course it is, it's been independent for a decade. But comparing its independence to USA's independence is always wrong, regardless of context and purpose.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #96
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post


i know you come from a big country, so you probably don't understand this but becoming a part of those international organisations means a lot to small ones. even so, if the us would get isolated because noone is recognising it as a country it would be affected by it soon enough. but a much smaller country would be hit much harder. being "independent", ironically, depends if others accept you and interract with you in that way. and presently the un membership opens you all doors.

you are arguing semantics rather than practical things. uncontacted tribes in amazonia are also independent but that is completely irrelevant to the question here.
No, I'm arguing that Kosovo is independent. And whether or not Kosovo is independent is completely relevant to a thread that celebrates its independence.

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
I understood the purpose, I just didn't like the comparison. It's not even a question if it's independent or not. Of course it is, it's been independent for a decade. But comparing its independence to USA's independence is always wrong, regardless of context and purpose.
I don't see how it's wrong.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #97
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
I don't see how it's wrong.
I'm aware you don't.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #98
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
No, I'm arguing that Kosovo is independent. And whether or not Kosovo is independent is completely relevant to a thread that celebrates its independence.
ok. and i am arguning kosovo is not completely independent, hence not independent. once it becomes like every other country and its membership in international organisations is not being blocked by countries that don't recognise it it will be completely independent or simply independent. right now its "independence" is limited, like that of north cyprus, abkhazia, transnistria... they are independent and free from, but not independent and free to, like really indpendent countries should be.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #99
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
I'm aware you don't.
Because it actually isn't wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
ok. and i am arguning kosovo is not completely independent, hence not independent. once it becomes like every other country and its membership in international organisations is not being blocked by countries that don't recognise it it will be completely independent or simply independent. right now its "independence" is limited, like that of north cyprus, abkhazia, transnistria... they are independent and free from, but not independent and free to, like really indpendent countries should be.
If Kosovo is self-governing, then it is completely independent.

All countries that are independent are not "free to" do whatever they want. There are limitations.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #100
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
Because it actually isn't wrong.
No. I'm aware that you don't think it's wrong because you don't see the difference between the colony and the integral part of the state.

Why would you put that as a comparison otherwise, you could've argued about the importance of UN support without that wrong example.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:37 PM   #101
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
If Kosovo is self-governing, then it is completely independent.

All countries that are independent are not "free to" do whatever they want. There are limitations.
i'm sorry but that's bullshit, can't be bothered to find a softer expression. of course there are limitations to what anyone does but there are also universally accepted rights and freedoms, also for countries. if you don't have those rights and freedoms you are not free, or in this case independent. as in, completely independent. just like with other examples i have mentioned.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #102
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
No. I'm aware that you don't think it's wrong because you don't see the difference between the colony and the integral part of the state.

Why would you put that as a comparison otherwise, you could've argued about the importance of UN support without that wrong example.
I said nothing about whether or not the USA or Kosovo were justified in claiming independence. I used the USA as an example because the USA is the most powerful country militarily. So even if other countries don't recognize the USA's independence, it wouldn't mean that the USA isn't independent.

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
i'm sorry but that's bullshit, can't be bothered to find a softer expression. of course there are limitations to what anyone does but there are also universally accepted rights and freedoms, also for countries. if you don't have those rights and freedoms you are not free, or in this case independent. as in, completely independent. just like with other examples i have mentioned.
No, there are not universally accepted rights and freedoms for countries. And even if there were, the fact that Kosovo lacks some of these has nothing to do with its independence.

The fact that some countries are free to invade other countries without UN approval and others aren't doesn't mean that the latter are not independent. Just like the fact that some countries are allowed to participate in certain sporting events (like the Olympics) and others aren't doesn't mean that the latter aren't independent.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #103
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
No, there are not universally accepted rights and freedoms for countries. And even if there were, the fact that Kosovo lacks some of these has nothing to do with its independence.

The fact that some countries are free to invade other countries without UN approval and others aren't doesn't mean that the latter are not independent. Just like the fact that some countries are allowed to participate in certain sporting events (like the Olympics) and others aren't doesn't mean that the latter aren't independent.
which "countries" exactly are now allowed to participate in the olympics?

bullshit post, this time without saying sorry. first of all, there are accepted rights of states, the fact that yours can break the rules because it can doesn't change anything. it only makes your politicians indictible war criminals if things change too quickly. you are not free to invade other countries and you will make a lot of enemies if you do and you are not powerful or wealthy enough.

you are independent if you are able to do what is recognised by all as your right. which usually all stems from the un membership. if you can't you are not completely independent. other countries or organisations may block you in ways they can't do with other countries and it has nothing to do with their relative power or wealth.

each way, the way you understand "independence" you should congratulate kosovo 13, not just 5 years. but apparently even people from kosovo don't see it as you do.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #104
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by azdaja View Post
which "countries" exactly are now allowed to participate in the olympics?
Look it up.
Quote:
bullshit post, this time without saying sorry. first of all, there are accepted rights of states, the fact that yours can break the rules because it can doesn't change anything. it only makes your politicians indictible war criminals if things change too quickly. you are not free to invade other countries and you will make a lot of enemies if you do and you are not powerful or wealthy enough.
So maybe Kosovo, being independent, has rights. But being that it isn't very influential internationally, it is denied them. This is consistent with your claims.
Quote:
you are independent if you are able to do what is recognised by all as your right. which usually all stems from the un membership. if you can't you are not completely independent. other countries or organisations may block you in ways they can't do with other countries and it has nothing to do with their relative power or wealth.

each way, the way you understand "independence" you should congratulate kosovo 13, not just 5 years. but apparently even people from kosovo don't see it as you do.
What a country can and cannot do "has nothing to do with their relative power or wealth"? Yeah right.

The fact of when citizens have been celebrating independence is irrelevant to whether or not Kosovo is independent (or when it became independent). The only relevant criteria is whether or not Kosovo is self-governing.
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Old Feb 18th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #105
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Re: Happy Independence Day RKS Kosova :)

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
I said nothing about whether or not the USA or Kosovo were justified in claiming independence. I used the USA as an example because the USA is the most powerful country militarily. So even if other countries don't recognize the USA's independence, it wouldn't mean that the USA isn't independent.
That's irrelevant. We can go further and question whether or not USA would be in position to become the biggest military force if it wasn't independent and recognized in the first place. Kosovo, OTOH, is not even that, it has the support of the biggest military force, that's why it's independent. One thing is to acknowledge and accept that, the other thing is to support it and congratulate them.

About the whole military force thing, this is just a "funny" fact. Albanian army on Kosovo was completely helpless against Yugoslavian army. So if it was only about military force, there wouldn't be any Albanians on Kosovo by 2000. That's why NATO intervened. So, the support is obviously more relevant than you say it is.
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