[paranr]

Originally Posted by adner

Noone says there are no rotten apples in any of our countries(in Poland there are quite many). It's just that they don't represent any real image of an "average" citizen of either Poland, Germany, Israel or any other country on Earth.

exactly , that is my point of view, but Mr DavidMario try to portray the Israeli's as an entire nation comprised of mainly aggressors. and I tried to show him that in every country there are racists, extremists and aggressors, so trying to portray Israel as a bully is wrong.

[olivero]

Originally Posted by paranr

Also , if you see the number of "Righteous Among the Nations" in every European country in comparison to the number of Jews in that were in the country before WW2 , you'll see why Israei's Like Neverland so much and Poland not so much:

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%...95%D7%9C%D7%9D

So, as you cann see In Poland there were 6339 such people for a population of more than 3000000 Jews, where is Neverland there were 5204 for a population of "only"170,000 Jews.

Dude, your logic is f***ed up on so many levels. First of all from those statistics, one award doesn't equal one saved Jewish person nor one person that saved Jews (iirc organisations were also included here). Secondly Poles were punished with death for saving Jews (not only one person was killed but the entire family involved in saving Jews). And yet they still did it. Last but not least, are you really trying to prove that just because the Netherlands look better according to your stats Poles didn't help the Jews or were antisemitic? Really?
I know Poles were pressed when it comes to WWII but you guys seem to be even worse.


And once again, close this thread mods!

[Bosco123]

Originally Posted by olivero

Dude, your logic is f***ed up on so many levels. First of all from those statistics, one award doesn't equal one saved Jewish person nor one person that saved Jews (iirc organisations were also included here). Secondly Poles were punished with death for saving Jews (not only one person was killed but the entire family involved in saving Jews). And yet they still did it. Last but not least, are you really trying to prove that just because the Netherlands look better according to your stats Poles didn't help the Jews or were antisemitic? Really?
I know Poles were pressed when it comes to WWII but you guys seem to be even worse.


And once again, close this thread mods!

well, you didn't address the anti-Semitism now in Poland towards Israelis visiting the death camps nowadays.

and yes, this thread should be closed.

[aguy9797]

Originally Posted by paranr

Israelies think that Poland is antisemitic right now because every year when delegation of teenagers from school goes to the annual visit in the death camps in Poland, there is a report of some antisemitic event. Here , it took me 20 seconds to find a report from Israel's third biggest newspaper:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/54/ART1/968/675.html, I don't have time to translate.

Also , if you see the number of "Righteous Among the Nations" in every European country in comparison to the number of Jews in that were in the country before WW2 , you'll see why Israei's Like Neverland so much and Poland not so much:

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%...95%D7%9C%D7%9D

So, as you cann see In Poland there were 6339 such people for a population of more than 3000000 Jews, where is Neverland there were 5204 for a population of "only"170,000 Jews.

This mechanism is actually well established in sociology research, people who are biased against another group tend to find examples that will prove that their bias is justified, hence, they will just focus only on a few events because these events reinforce their paradigm of viewing the world

[olivero]

Originally Posted by Bosco123

well, you didn't address the anti-Semitism now in Poland towards Israelis visiting the death camps nowadays.

and yes, this thread should be closed.

Well duh. I can't deny there are antisemitists in Poland. Like racists and homophobes. But you'll find them in basically every onther country. Including Israel.

[TeamUla]

Originally Posted by Bosco123

well, you didn't address the anti-Semitism now in Poland towards Israelis visiting the death camps nowadays.

and yes, this thread should be closed.

http://www.dzienniklodzki.pl/artykul...gast,id,t.html

First you should think about your citizens who were having pee on the memorial buildings and then think about other Europeans. We are not the main source of your problems. Now Israeli nation is doing itself a problem behaving constantly as big victims instead of closing the history chapter and going on. Of course there are antisemitists in Poland but with much less influence then antisemitic people in Israel (towards Arabic/Muslim people), who - dare you think are Semitic people too.

[Bosco123]

Originally Posted by TeamUla

http://www.dzienniklodzki.pl/artykul...gast,id,t.html

First you should think about your citizens who were having pee on the memorial buildings and then think about other Europeans. We are not the main source of your problems. Now Israeli nation is doing itself a problem behaving constantly as big victims instead of closing the history chapter and going on. Of course there are antisemitists in Poland as there are antisemitists in Israel (towards Arabic/Muslim people), who - dare you think are Semic people too.

That is absolutely repulsive, I ashamed of those uneducated youngsters and condone those things.

[TeamUla]

Originally Posted by Bosco123

That is absolutely repulsive, I ashamed of those uneducated youngsters and condone those things.

And this Polish "antisemitism" is the same as these children. It exist in some societies - mainly nationalist catholics who are like 10% of Polish people.

Pretty much there is more homophobes/antifeminists/nationalism case in Poland these days. Jewish issue is not relevant these days in Poland because we are pretty much closed with the 2nd world war chapter here. Now we have other ideological problems here, believe me. Israel is not anymore a main enemy of those nationalists - now it is Russia and how come those Russian don't cry how very "antirussian" Polish people are?

[paranr]

Originally Posted by aguy9797

This mechanism is actually well established in sociology research, people who are biased against another group tend to find examples that will prove that their bias is justified, hence, they will just focus only on a few events because these events reinforce their paradigm of viewing the world

well that logic should be applied to Mr DavidMario also who build his perspective on Israel based on 1 event that happen 5 years ago.

[aguy9797]

Originally Posted by paranr

well that logic should be applied to Mr DavidMario also who build his perspective on Israel based on 1 event that happen 5 years ago.

You are absolutely right, it does apply to any form of bias. There is also variance in the degree of bias, in some cases it could be weaker in some cases it would be stronger. This is a good subject for comperative research. I think we all as humans should be responsible for identifying such bias within our own group, only such recognition can lead to the development of new socially accepted norms of behaviors which will exclude prejudice

[Angelus87]

Originally Posted by Bosco123

well, you didn't address the anti-Semitism now in Poland towards Israelis visiting the death camps nowadays.

and yes, this thread should be closed.

point s you guys visit those camps and talk that this s "polish death camp". those camps were build after Poland was defeated so they cant be called like that. That s trying to put shit on our history nothing more

Main problem here s that a lot of posters here talk like there s no way that something happened in this match.It s not problem that all videos are blocked from Israel side and you gys try to close thread when everything s not bring to end. we will see what ITF will do then we can close thread

[davidmario]

Originally Posted by paranr

I admit that what this user says is really exaggerated, but I did found an article about hidden racism from Germans towards locas German Turks from last year in israel left wing fourth bigger newspaper:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/world/1.1652946

so you are not saints as you try to portrait yourself.

It is indeed a big issue since there is racism towards the German Turks but also from the German Turks towards the Germans. Every other country, however, has racism (racists parties mostly get around 5% max upon election).
But the example you provided is pretty irrelevant to the discussion since I was insulted by "Israel" who played the victim role, threatening me to carefully select my words because of my origin and something extreme people had done years before my parents were born. I tried to explain why it is very important to close the history chapter and move on. You can learn from the past, yes, but the past should not be a base for judging people who were born in the same country after that horrific event had happened.
I hope you get my point now.

Originally Posted by paranr

exactly , that is my point of view, but Mr DavidMario try to portray the Israeli's as an entire nation comprised of mainly aggressors. and I tried to show him that in every country there are racists, extremists and aggressors, so trying to portray Israel as a bully is wrong.

That is true like I said above. I just found it awkward that those aggressors(on a tennis etiquette level) made up the entire stadium during most Fed Cup events so far, and that the members of the team (Peer, Glushko, all of those clapping) were aggressors of that sort, too, which was scary to me.

Originally Posted by paranr

well that logic should be applied to Mr DavidMario also who build his perspective on Israel based on 1 event that happen 5 years ago.

I read a lot of alternative news, travel a lot, watch documentaries etc. I did not build my perspective on Israel just on that one Fed Cup tie
Well then there was this Fed Cup tie vs Poland, the insults I got here trying to discuss it, with Israeli posters exactly playing that guilt game on a German poster like me. Then this absurd link you provided trying to make a point that did nothing to the debate we had before.

[paranr]

[quote=davidmario;24541818]It is indeed a big issue since there is racism towards the German Turks but also from the German Turks towards the Germans. Every other country, however, has racism (racists parties mostly get around 5% max upon election).

Originally Posted by davidmario

But the example you provided is pretty irrelevant to the discussion since I was insulted by "Israel" who played the victim role, threatening me to carefully select my words because of my origin and something extreme people had done years before my parents were born. I tried to explain why it is very important to close the history chapter and move on. You can learn from the past, yes, but the past should not be a base for judging people who were born in the same country after that horrific event had happened.
I hope you get my point now.

blaming German today for crimes that happen over 70 years ago is ridiculous ,I hate it when the victim card is pushed too much.

That is true like I said above. I just found it awkward that those aggressors(on a tennis etiquette level) made up the entire stadium during most Fed Cup events so far, and that the members of the team (Peer, Glushko, all of those clapping) were aggressors of that sort, too, which was scary to me.

If it was a soccer match , nobody would have noticed, the crowd that came to this fed cup was not a tennis-loving crowd, it was a crowd that came to see Sharapova, the celeb , which all the newspaper talked on and on about the previous week.

Originally Posted by davidmario

Then this absurd link you provided trying to make a point that did nothing to the debate we had before.

the relation to the debate was clear, I tried to prove that nasty behaviour like this Sharapova fed cup incident happens in every country, even in Germany and Poland, are you trying to argue that this incident is worse than the murder of 10 germen turks between 2006-2010?

[Dana1982]

[quote=paranr;24569482]

Originally Posted by davidmario

It is indeed a big issue since there is racism towards the German Turks but also from the German Turks towards the Germans. Every other country, however, has racism (racists parties mostly get around 5% max upon election).

blaming German today for crimes that happen over 70 years ago is ridiculous ,I hate it when the victim card is pushed too much.

We never use the victim card. Well, maybe only fro Eurovosion. I expect Germany to give Israeli at least 5-6 points, no matter what.

Just kidding.

This all thread is out of proportions, just like the things Aga said. People who didn't watch the match shouldn't pretend to know what happened, judge and sentence Israelis. This topic is way out of context by now and should be closed, IMO.

[davidmario]

Originally Posted by paranr

the relation to the debate was clear, I tried to prove that nasty behaviour like this Sharapova fed cup incident happens in every country, even in Germany and Poland, are you trying to argue that this incident is worse than the murder of 10 germen turks between 2006-2010?

First of all, we don't want to talk about the number of Germans killed by German Turks nor do we want to talk about the number of Palestines killed by Israelis - this does not relate to the discussion. You could provide me an example of a German stadium crowd behaving racist towards a particular nation's team, THEN you would have a point. You went on a level that does not make you very credible. You just compared a crowd in its entirety being exceptionally rude with "normal" (sadly but true) crimes that happen due to racism in every other country. This argumentation makes no sense to me here and I'm not gonna relate to it any further. I'm sorry

Originally Posted by Dana1982

We never use the victim card. Well, maybe only fro Eurovosion. I expect Germany to give Israeli at least 5-6 points, no matter what.

Just kidding.

This all thread is out of proportions, just like the things Aga said. People who didn't watch the match shouldn't pretend to know what happened, judge and sentence Israelis. This topic is way out of context by now and should be closed, IMO.

I watched highlights on an Israeli website and read several supports. It looked pretty similar to what had happened in that Russia tie.

But you are right. This discussion went way beyond its scope and it seems like only a handful of people are participating in it. Therefore we all know each other's stand point and that is enough for me personally.
Y'all take care.