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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #106
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

Wingis was better and smarter than any of the current clowns, including Serena. She was just born at the wrong time - when they slowed the tour down, her game wasn't suited to the new conditions. Then she fucked up her ankles and that was it.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 01:15 PM   #107
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Will2 View Post
I'm just proving its as irrelevant as that argument you're trying to use about Henin winning 1 of 4 straight Grand Slam Finals contested. You can't only base it on their slams won cause they both have 7.

I could argue all day but there H2H says a lot about who is greater to me and YES I acknowledge They didn't have the chance to play as often post 2004 but when they played Venus was better most of the time.

Henin's wins are legitimate but when Venus was at her best she was better than Henin everywhere but clay. Justine was great I respect her game but USO 2007 IMO was as good of tennis as we've seen post Graf from anyone bar Serena. Henin however couldn't maintain that level at all.
The Venus wins over Henin were between 01 and the AO of 03 when Venus was at her ultimate prime and Justine had not nearly reached hers. Still, I would say that at their very best, Venus woud have the advantage on grass while Justine would have a definite advantage on clay. On faster hard courts, Venus would have the slight advantage while Justine would have the slight advantage on slower hard courts. The reason I would give Justine a slightly higher rating over Venus is due to Consistancy. From the USO in 03 till the beginning of 08 a healthy Justine had very few bad losses to lesser players, whereas, Venus could lose to just about anyone during that period. Both were great players and deserve admiration by all. I would give Justine a bit more due to her size though.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 02:34 PM   #108
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Few weeks?! End June-early July ( Wimbledon) to late September (U.S. open)?! Is a few weeks?!
And she did it twice. Vee is a slowstarter, not gonna deny that..but to dismiss her impressive record at Wimby and the U.S. open, is silly.

I'm not dismissing Venus' records at Wimby or USO. And those domination periods you are talking about are lasting 3-4 months. Henin dominated pretty much teh whole 2007 (except for a few weeks at the beginning) and for a long period in 2003/2004. That's definitely longer than Venus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Because Juju's own season..apart from RG, what does she do? Not much.

You're funny.
Let's take out Venus' record on grass and Henin's record on clay...Henin still comes out ahead since she actually won more Slams on HC than Venus did. She also won more YEC's.
And I won't even start with weeks at #1...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Don't forget also that Venus peaked at the same time as Serena in 02-03. Henin peaked when Serena was slumping.

You can see this in their GS final H2H. 8 finals played between Venus and Serena and Venus won twice. Henin only played once and lost.

Venus is the only player to beat Serena twice in a slam final. One was the last slam Serena lost before winning Serena Slam. The other was the last slam Serena lost before winning 5/8 slams (her second period of dominance).

Oh yes, those stats are really impressive.
Henin, unlike Venus, has a winning H2H with Serena in Slams but of course you are only mentioning that one loss shortly after Henin's comeback



Oh, and Venus did not peak at the same time with Serena.
Venus peaked in 2000/2001.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #109
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

Nobody in their right minds would say Venus is better or more accomplished than Justine . Venus record at RG and Melbourne is EMBARRASING. Justine didn't win Wimbledon but she was an EXTRAORDINARY grass player. Still top 5 of her generation on grass. There is such a huge gap between the two IMO, one is an all-court all-surface player and the other a one-dimensional one-surface wonder. Its not even close.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #110
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
I'm not dismissing Venus' records at Wimby or USO. And those domination periods you are talking about are lasting 3-4 months. Henin dominated pretty much teh whole 2007 (except for a few weeks at the beginning) and for a long period in 2003/2004. That's definitely longer than Venus.
Well, Juju was more CONSISTENT in that she went deep at tourneys throughout the year..but to say she dominated longer? She only won back to back majors once, in '03-'04, u.s. open-oz open. so to say she DOMINATED would be a stretch imo. Because by RG she was already losing to Garbin, no?!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
You're funny.
Let's take out Venus' record on grass and Henin's record on clay...Henin still comes out ahead since she actually won more Slams on HC than Venus did. She also won more YEC's.
And I won't even start with weeks at #1...
Well, Vee has what 2 titles, 2 RU, bunch of SF's at the U.S. open ( Juju apart from the two great runs at the Open and the RU to Masha in '06, isn't that impressive at the U.S. open..at the Oz open, that I give you..is all Juju.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #111
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

Why is this thread all about Justine now? The thread title should clearly suggest this post be all about Venus. While you all are taking Justine's singles and saying she is greater than Venus, doubles DOES actually count for something if we are talking about her "Career Placement" If you look at Venus's collective body of work she more than compensates for not having a RG or Australian Open singles title.

At least we can say Venus never gave a slam title away to anyone.

That easily makes her greater than Henin to me.

(Since we are using our own bias to determine who is better figured I would add to the fuckery)
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:00 PM   #112
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Well, Juju was more CONSISTENT in that she went deep at tourneys throughout the year..but to say she dominated longer? She only won back to back majors once, in '03-'04, u.s. open-oz open. so to say she DOMINATED would be a stretch imo. Because by RG she was already losing to Garbin, no?!

No.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #113
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

Ya


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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #114
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by Roookie View Post
Nobody in their right minds would say Venus is better or more accomplished than Justine . Venus record at RG and Melbourne is EMBARRASING. Justine didn't win Wimbledon but she was an EXTRAORDINARY grass player. Still top 5 of her generation on grass. There is such a huge gap between the two IMO, one is an all-court all-surface player and the other a one-dimensional one-surface wonder. Its not even close.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #115
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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No.
Juju didn't lose '04 RG to Garbin? first defending champ to lose 1r?
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:32 PM   #116
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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At least we can say Venus never gave a slam title away to anyone.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #117
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Wingis was better and smarter than any of the current clowns, including Serena. She was just born at the wrong time - when they slowed the tour down, her game wasn't suited to the new conditions. Then she fucked up her ankles and that was it.

For a minute there, they were saying the same thing about Novak Djokovic, but he adapted. The good and smart ones are able to do this.
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:34 PM   #118
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Juju didn't lose '04 RG to Garbin? first defending champ to lose 1r?

You're wrong. She lost in the 2nd round.

Venus OTOH lost in the first round in 2001 which according to some people here was during her domination period (and she lost 1:6,1:6 in the Slam before )
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #119
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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You're wrong. She lost in the 2nd round.

Venus OTOH lost in the first round in 2001 which according to some people here was during her domination period (and she lost 1:6,1:6 in the Slam before )
and went on to defend both her titles at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. So what exactly is your point?
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Old Feb 5th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #120
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Re: Debate: Venus Williams' Career Placement

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Originally Posted by ~Cherry*Blossom~ View Post
US Open 2010
Lol yes but only figuratively.

Venus takes her losses and wins like a true champion.

Hell even Sharapova took her ass whippin in the Finals of the Olympics last year. I'm sure she wanted to retire in that match but she didn't let a little tummy ache ruin the win for her opponent.
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