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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 12:43 AM   #451
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

Quote:
Originally Posted by moby View Post
I believe Graf can come back now at 40+ and be top 10. If prime Graf played, no doubt she'll be number 1 today.

Ironically, even though you think the serve-and-volleyers are the reason Graf had so much time to slice on the backhand, that was the only play that would force Graf to come over her backhand and attempt a topspin pass. Earlier in her career, Graf had to hit far more topspin backhands. By the early-mid 90s, most players were already baseliners and that's when Graf really sliced exclusively without fear that players could approach on the backhand.

I imagine Graf would wreck havoc on the extreme Western grips that most players use nowadays. Can you imagine how much her driving slice would bite and penetrate with the new strings?

We saw her play an exhibition match as early as mid-2009 against Clijsters (who went on to win 3 of the next 5 slams she played in), and even though she lost with a tight score, she was the one dictating play. One could say Kim wasn't going all out or whatever, but she was definitely playing at a pretty high level still.


So much delusional in this world that I can't.


Now I believe in miracles. Anything is possible in this world and there are crazy people there, even at this level.




For your information, Kimiko beat Graf easily in straight in a match to test her level right before she decided to come back. Beating Graf must give her much confidence, because although it wasn't a tournament match, it also wasn't an exhibition "hit and giggle" matches that you usually saw. I'm sure after all those years that they hadn't played each other, they would put in a lot of effort to see where their levels were actually at. So much for the unbeatable Graf.




Another point that is worth to mentioned is although Kimiko is over 40, she retired as early as 26yo, and keeping away from tennis in all those years, so as a result, she still reserved her freshness, hungry for success and was not " tear and worn" like most other retired players. Her old fashion game now, although unique enough to surprise some younger players, wasn't able to get her back into top 50 at best ( usually wandering in lower part of the top 100), so as much as I like Kimiko, her tennis nowadays is just worth as that.




If you know a few things about how to different in top tennis players' s level, you would know there is a big difference between top 3 and top 10, top 10 and top 30, top 50 and top 100.



The higher in the ranking, the bigger the gaps. Therefore it's not that hard to break to top 100 or even top 50, but very very hard to get up to the top echelon of the world
.


Ranked #100 atm, A. Panova only need 500 more pts to move into the top 50. Need 800 pts more from No 50 to get into the top 20. While at the top, the gap between No12 Petrova and No 7 Errani is 1,800 pts. From No6 Keber to No 4 Radwanska is 2,000 pts and No 6 Kerber to No 3 Maria is roughly 4,000 pts. Na entered the AO ranked No 6, even if she won the AO with the adding of 2,000 pts, she wouldn't be ranked higher than No 5. So 2,000pts only helped her moving her up one place in the ranking from No6 to No5 , while Kimiko, playing all year having around just over 800 pts now.


Conclusion: It's not that hard to be around the lower part of top 100 like what Kimkiko is doing, moving up at the top is very very difficult, not as easy like " she would be No 1" like some delusional freaks like to say so.


Most important, I thought this thread should be over, then it's still going on????? So pointless to say Steffi would be ranked this and that. She is welcome to come back and take the challenge. There are so much money now in the business including prize money and endorsment money comparing to the money in the past. She wouldn't, of course. Why? ???? Because, unlike some of her delusional fans, she knows where she is at the moment. You can say she has enough money, blah blah blah, but we all know people won't never had enough money, regardless how much they have, especially Steffi is already left biting the dust atm money wise comparing to the likes of Serena, Venus, Davenport, Maria, even Na, so unless she has the balls to come back and prove your point, saying outrageous stuffs like that is just pointless.

( I just realized I also feed the trolls. My bad.)

Last edited by dragonflies : Feb 3rd, 2013 at 01:20 AM.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 12:45 AM   #452
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
I had the feeling you'd be one of those who'd be still stuck in 2006 and still on the "Sharapova can't play on clay!!!11" bandwagon.

I really don't see why Maria couldn't've beaten the off-form Graf that lost to Pierce at RG1994 (even though, again, for the record, I've never doubted that Graf at her peak would beat Maria on clay) And I also think she, unlike Pierce, would've had the tenacity to scrap past Sanchez Vicario in that final.
I know how much Sharapova has improved on Clay, and I also know she wouldn't win a FO in the 90s.

ASV isn't Errani.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 12:51 AM   #453
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
I know how much Sharapova has improved on Clay, and I also know she wouldn't win a FO in the 90s.

ASV isn't Errani.
Let's not pretend that Errani is the only player Sharapova managed to beat last year.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 12:53 AM   #454
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
Let's not pretend that Errani is the only player Sharapova managed to beat last year.
Lets not pretend any of the players clay court prowess she beat last year compares favorably to ASV.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:02 AM   #455
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Lets not pretend any of the players clay court prowess she beat last year compares favorably to ASV.
I believe that Sam's game on clay is very impressive when she's anywhere close to her peak. And she played very close to her peak against Maria. And I don't think that ASV would beat peak Sam easily.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:17 AM   #456
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
I believe that Sam's game on clay is very impressive when she's anywhere close to her peak. And she played very close to her peak against Maria. And I don't think that ASV would beat peak Sam easily.
So you're saying that Maria's most impressive clay court win last year came over someone who hasn't won a single FO, or more than one title on the surface?

My point exactly.

Anyways, I disagree that Sam's clay game is very impressive; maybe relative to today's field, but their are reasons beyond her being a mental case as to why she's unable to win a FO, or more than a single title on clay for that matter, even against one of the weakest, if not THE weakest, clay fields of all time.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:27 AM   #457
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
So you're saying that Maria's most impressive clay court win last year came over someone who hasn't won a single FO, or more than one title on the surface?

My point exactly.
It was one of the best matches we saw on clay in the last few years. I'm talking mostly about her level of game when she's near her peak, not about her mentality.

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Anyways, I disagree that Sam's clay game is very impressive, relative to today's field?
No, in general. That kick serve and top-spin forehand are huge on clay. For sure those shots have its limitations on hardcourts against tall players, but on clay it bounces higher and I can't think of the player who wouldn't be bothered at all by her weapons on clay, if she's on. Even her bh is decent on clay, she moves well, her volleys are fine. I don't even see a clear weakness in her game on clay. Apart from brain, of course.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:42 AM   #458
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

Stosur: 1 FO final, 1 clay title

ASV: 3 FO titles, 6 FO finals, 19 clay titles

If you want to believe Stosur is as good or even close to ASV on clay than that's your prerogative; just leave me out of it please.

I'm done here.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:50 AM   #459
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Stosur: 1 FO final, 1 clay title

ASV: 3 FO titles, 6 FO finals, 19 clay titles

If you want to believe Stosur is as good or even close to ASV on clay than that's your prerogative; just leave me out of it please.

I'm done here.
She's talking about her ability as a player on clay, not her achievements on the surface.

As much as I can't stand her, her game is built for clay. And what Cajka said is right.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 01:53 AM   #460
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by JarkaFish View Post
Stosur: 1 FO final, 1 clay title

ASV: 3 FO titles, 6 FO finals, 19 clay titles

If you want to believe Stosur is as good or even close to ASV on clay than that's your prerogative; just leave me out of it please.

I'm done here.
I wasn't talking about Sam's number of titles, but about her peak level on clay and you're perfectly aware of that. You're not that stupid, mr. Claycourter... Or maybe yes. If I were making a 29th account, I would at least make sure to choose other faves, not Henin and Graf every single time, but hey.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 04:31 AM   #461
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

Sam's game on clay can't compare to ASV. Sam can have a great kickserve and a great topspin forehand which can wreak havoc when she's on.
However, one of the reason she appears impressive when she's on is because no one has a clue how to play on the surface these days. Schiavone made Sam look tame with a good strategy.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 05:16 AM   #462
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by dragonflies View Post
Another point that is worth to mentioned is although Kimiko is over 40, she retired as early as 26yo, and keeping away from tennis in all those years, so as a result, she still reserved her freshness, hungry for success and was not " tear and worn" like most other retired players. Her old fashion game now, although unique enough to surprise some younger players, wasn't able to get her back into top 50 at best ( usually wandering in lower part of the top 100), so as much as I like Kimiko, her tennis nowadays is just worth as that.
I love to watch people arguing about Graf & Serena, Hingis, Seles etc so I wasn't gonna say anything but WAIT these coments about KDK are pretty harsh!!

When you are 40+, it's hard to maintain your condition through out the year
+ even if you win R1 with quality tennis, playing R2, R3 is another story concerning how fast you can recover, so how well you can play in form and keeping annual ranking is pretty different for 40+ ...


And even though she's quite fit as 40+, she used to run faster and played more consistent... now she needs to take risks sometime playing too aggressive ended up making tons of errors cause she has to end the match ASAP.
So there's adjustment you need to change in play style for 40+...

And KDK's highest rank in her second career is #46, even with the often tough draw at GS + staying around Top50 quite a long time between 2010-2011,
and you need to mention she was injured most of the time between later 2011-2012.
In 2010 she played 10 times with Top20 and won 6 of them includig Li Na and Sharapova, played 6 times with Top10 and won 2 of them + 5 out of 6 matches went to 3setter...
You know that doesn't happen to the ordinary "player wandering in lower part of the top 100", as you say...

Hers's some result you mentioned just "surprise some younger players".... but looks like some includes most of the Top10 players nowadays.

2009
R128 Loss [25] Kaia Kanepi (EST) 28 6-4 4-6 8-6 (AO R1)
R128 Loss [9] Caroline Wozniacki (DEN) 9 5-7 6-3 6-1 (Wimby R1)
both match KDK faded away with cramping at the end...

R64 Loss [17] Sabine Lisicki (GER) 22 7-6 (5) 2-6 7-5

R16 Win [5] Alisa Kleybanova (RUS) 30 4-6 7-6 (4) 6-3
Q Win [1] Daniela Hantuchova (SVK) 21 7-6 (3) 4-6 6-4
S Win Maria Kirilenko (RUS) 54 3-6 6-2 6-4
F Win [2] Anabel Medina Garrigues (ESP) 23 6-3 6-3
Won Seoul open

2010
R16 Win [5] Virginie Razzano (FRA) 19 3-6 6-3 6-2

R32 Win Nadia Petrova (RUS) 20 6-3 5-7 6-4
R16 Loss [6] Victoria Azarenka (BLR) 7 6-1 5-7 7-5

R128 Win [9] Dinara Safina (RUS) 9 3-6 6-4 7-5

R32 Win [W] Dinara Safina (RUS) 35 4-6 7-6 (0) 6-2
R16 Loss [2] Elena Dementieva (RUS) 6 3-6 6-3 6-4

R128 Loss [11] Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS) 13 6-2 4-6 6-1

R16 Win [2] Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova (RUS) 20 6-2 6-1
R64 Win [12] Maria Sharapova (RUS) 15 7-5 3-6 6-3
The last tournament Sharapova lost in R1 in 3years...

R32 Loss [7] Elena Dementieva (RUS) 9 6-3 1-6 6-3

Q Win [1] Samantha Stosur (AUS) 8 5-7 6-3 7-6 (4)
S Win [3] Shahar Peer (ISR) 13 3-6 7-6 (5) 7-5

F Win Daniela Hantuchova (SVK) 31 7-5 7-5
W Win [1] Na Li (CHN) 11 6-4 3-6 6-4
Loss Ana Ivanovic (SRB) 24 7-5 6-7 (7) 6-2

2011
R32 Loss [8] Angelique Kerber (GER) 46 7-5 7-6 (3)

R128 Loss [12] Agnieszka Radwanska (POL) 14 6-4 4-6 7-5
infamous fake MTO incidents...

R32 Win [6] Maria Kirilenko (RUS) 27 7-6 (5) 6-2

R64 Loss [23] Venus Williams (USA) 30 6-7 (8) 6-3 8-6
Venus maybe past her prime but wait... KDK surely past her prime tons of years ago!!

2013
R128 Win [12] Nadia Petrova (RUS) 12 6-2 6-0


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonflies View Post
while Kimiko, playing all year having around just over 800 pts now.

Conclusion: It's not that hard to be around the lower part of top 100 like what Kimkiko is doing, moving up at the top is very very difficult, not as easy like " she would be No 1" like some delusional freaks like to say so.
She just earned 600pt in 2month and ranked Top10 in 2013 ranking race.
That's what happens when she's in form... Oh don't get me wrong, I know more than half she earned in ITF, but seems going back to Top50 is not that hard if she stays injury free and please be generous to elders...period!!

Now get back to Graf & Serena arguments!!

Last edited by Viennalover : Feb 3rd, 2013 at 05:40 AM.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 05:25 AM   #463
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by Viennalover View Post
I love to watch people arguing about Graf & Serena, Hingis, Seles etc so I wasn't gonna say anything but WAIT these coments about KDK are pretty harsh!!

When you are 40+, it's hard to maintain your condition through out the year
+ even if you win R1 with quality tennis, playing R2, R3 is another story concerning how fast you can recover, so how well you can play in form and keeping annual ranking is pretty different for 40+ ...

And even though she's quite fit as 40+, she used to run faster and played more consistent... now she needs to take risks sometime playing too aggressive ended up making tons of errors cause she has to end the match ASAP.
So there's adjustment you need to change in play style for 40+...

And KDK's highest rank in her second career is #46 + staying around Top50 quite a long time between 2010-2011,
and you need to mention she was injured most of the time between later 2011-2012.
In 2010 she played 10 times with Top20 and won 6 of them includig Li Na and Sharapova,
played 6 times with Top10 and won 2 of them + 5 out of 6 matches went to 3setter...

You know that doesn't happen to the "ordinary player wandering in lower part of the top 100", as you say...

Hers's some result you mentioned just "surprise some younger players"....

2009
R128 Loss [25] Kaia Kanepi (EST) 28 6-4 4-6 8-6 (AO R1)
R128 Loss [9] Caroline Wozniacki (DEN) 9 5-7 6-3 6-1 (Wimby R1)
both match KDK faded away with cramping at the end...

R64 Loss [17] Sabine Lisicki (GER) 22 7-6 (5) 2-6 7-5

R16 Win [5] Alisa Kleybanova (RUS) 30 4-6 7-6 (4) 6-3
Q Win [1] Daniela Hantuchova (SVK) 21 7-6 (3) 4-6 6-4
S Win Maria Kirilenko (RUS) 54 3-6 6-2 6-4
F Win [2] Anabel Medina Garrigues (ESP) 23 6-3 6-3
Won Seoul open

2010
R16 Win [5] Virginie Razzano (FRA) 19 3-6 6-3 6-2

R32 Win Nadia Petrova (RUS) 20 6-3 5-7 6-4
R16 Loss [6] Victoria Azarenka (BLR) 7 6-1 5-7 7-5

R128 Win [9] Dinara Safina (RUS) 9 3-6 6-4 7-5

R32 Win [W] Dinara Safina (RUS) 35 4-6 7-6 (0) 6-2
R16 Loss [2] Elena Dementieva (RUS) 6 3-6 6-3 6-4

R128 Loss [11] Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS) 13 6-2 4-6 6-1

R16 Win [2] Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova (RUS) 20 6-2 6-1
R64 Win [12] Maria Sharapova (RUS) 15 7-5 3-6 6-3
The last tournament that Sharapova lost in R1 in 3years...

R32 Loss [7] Elena Dementieva (RUS) 9 6-3 1-6 6-3

Q Win [1] Samantha Stosur (AUS) 8 5-7 6-3 7-6 (4)
S Win [3] Shahar Peer (ISR) 13 3-6 7-6 (5) 7-5

F Win Daniela Hantuchova (SVK) 31 7-5 7-5
W Win [1] Na Li (CHN) 11 6-4 3-6 6-4
Loss Ana Ivanovic (SRB) 24 7-5 6-7 (7) 6-2

2011
R32 Loss [8] Angelique Kerber (GER) 46 7-5 7-6 (3)

R128 Loss [12] Agnieszka Radwanska (POL) 14 6-4 4-6 7-5
infamous fake MTO incidents...

R32 Win [6] Maria Kirilenko (RUS) 27 7-6 (5) 6-2

R64 Loss [23] Venus Williams (USA) 30 6-7 (8) 6-3 8-6
Venus maybe past her prime but wait... KDK surely past her prime tons of years ago!!

2013
R128 Win [12] Nadia Petrova (RUS) 12 6-2 6-0




She just earned 600pt in 2month and ranked Top10 in 2013 ranking race.
That's what happens when she's in form... Oh don't get me wrong, I know more than half she earned in ITF, but seems going back to Top50 is not that hard if she stays injury free and please be generous to elders...period!!

Now get back to Graf & Serena arguments!!




I'm well aware about KMD and I also knew some of the parts that you posted b/c I'm also a KMD's admirer of her courage and love of tennis.



I appreciate that you posted those positive stats about her.




My post, while it was harsh on Kimiko, proved how hard it is to come back to the tour and join others at the top, as opposed to Moby's point that today's Graf , at the age of 44, would be a top ten player easily


He wasn't aware that when you go back to the tour, unseed, you will have to play top players in early rounds and those lower ranked players, even the ones you barely ever heard their names, can knock the hell out of the balls.


End of ranting.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 05:53 AM   #464
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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And, are you saying Serena's game isn't timeless?
It's not a diss to her, but her game might not have worked as well with the smaller racket heads and non-fancy strings of the 70s and 80s and before, playing against serve-and-volleyers. It's not her fault, she didn't have the chance and will never need to adapt to that sort of game. No doubt she would be a top player even then, but I see her having to come in to net a lot more herself, being incapable of finishing points with the one-two punch that she likes to do.

Graf was unique in that her career lay precisely at the transition of tennis from a predominantly serve-and-volley game to a predominantly baselining game, arguably the biggest transition in tennis. She was a baseliner herself. She grew up playing on wood, probably played juniors with wood, and transited to the pro tour with a first generation graphite racket, and then got used to the fancier rackets later in her career. She's basically played with and against every kind of racket in the history of the sport. (The strings, not so much, not the latest 2010s edition)

And just look at this:


A four year old not just moving towards and timing the ball perfectly with wood, but also doing trick backhands (0:50) (what would become her "weaker" wing)!
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Last edited by moby : Feb 3rd, 2013 at 06:01 AM.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 07:39 AM   #465
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

Quote:
Originally Posted by moby View Post
It's not a diss to her, but her game might not have worked as well with the smaller racket heads and non-fancy strings of the 70s and 80s and before, playing against serve-and-volleyers. It's not her fault, she didn't have the chance and will never need to adapt to that sort of game. No doubt she would be a top player even then, but I see her having to come in to net a lot more herself, being incapable of finishing points with the one-two punch that she likes to do.

Graf was unique in that her career lay precisely at the transition of tennis from a predominantly serve-and-volley game to a predominantly baselining game, arguably the biggest transition in tennis. She was a baseliner herself. She grew up playing on wood, probably played juniors with wood, and transited to the pro tour with a first generation graphite racket, and then got used to the fancier rackets later in her career. She's basically played with and against every kind of racket in the history of the sport. (The strings, not so much, not the latest 2010s edition)

And just look at this:


A four year old not just moving towards and timing the ball perfectly with wood, but also doing trick backhands (0:50) (what would become her "weaker" wing)!
Well then you need to be talking about Evert/Navratilova. These players actually won Grand Slams with wood AND graphite. Graf learned tennis with wood but she never won a slam with it. Again, fantasies. Those players had to switch to graphite as adults and win slams with it.
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