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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:01 PM   #46
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I think the rule is generally true, but might not currently be true, for this simple reason: In every sport, the general athletic talent pool raises because more people worldwide are able to play.

The problem is, the state of the women's game as is allows players with very little natural athletic ability to compete at the highest levels.

Look at Graf, Martina, and Serena. Some of the most amazing female athletes ever. Now look at Azarenka. It's not even in the same ballpark. Which is why this generation is relatively poor historically.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:12 PM   #47
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
So what is really your point, dsanders?! That Serena isn't a goat-candidate? You keep confusing when people discuss PEAK vs PEAK with being GREATER.


Peak vs Peak, we've seen Steffi, we've seen Serena...and people are discussing what might or might not happen. Some people think that Serena's PEAK form might be the best. That's different than saying she's the GREATEST.
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Originally Posted by JanNYC View Post
I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. I may feel as though Serena at her best is better than anyone else, past or present, at their best, but I still think to be considered "the greatest" you have to have the numbers, and Graf still has the numbers. However, if you were to ask me who i'd pick to win a match, peak Graf or peak Serena, i'd take Serena every day and twice on sundays. To say that every generation is "better" than the previous one is absolute nonsense, as far as i'm concerned. What has this generation done to show they should even be mentioned in the same sentence as that crop that came through in the early 2000's?
I'm talking about BOTH greatness AND "bestness" (at peak level). I agree with you both that in terms of greatness, it's really beyond debate that Serena is inferior to Graf simply because her achievements are so far below -- although, again there are some people who claim, that even in terms of pure greatness, Serena should be regarded as better simply because this era is supposedly "stronger". And it was the same in the men's game when people were claiming Federer was already greater than Sampras when he still only had about 10 Slams and no RG title (though it's obviously academic now he's surpassed Sampras in every respect).

And with regards to the debate about whether Serena would beat past generations' great players -- my issue is that, whenever we have these debates, a lot of people just mindlessly chant that "the game has evolved" since the past greats played, and that therefore the past greats would have no chance against today's greats. And that's a great shame because, even though I certainly have my opinion that Peak Graf beats Peak Serena on most surfaces, I still would be interested in seeing that debate, especially if it included players like Navratilova and Evert (players I don't know that much about in detail, and so I'd be interested to see how people who do know about the 70s/80s era in detail think those players would match up with today's players). But it's just tiresome to see some people thinking there's no debate at all, just because of baseless assumptions about how the game used to be (like "a backhand slice has no chance in today's game" even though the men's game shows that's not true, or "racquet technology has advanced too much since then" when it's actually made no significant advances since the early 90s atall).

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Originally Posted by JanNYC View Post
So, are you saying that it is NOT the general consensus that the Williams sisters raised the bar?
Again, raised the bar in what sense? I accept that they raised the bar in terms of serving, that they served more powerfully than anyone in the game before -- just as Kvitova, according to the BBC, hits more powerful groundstrokes than anyone in the game before. Their games OVERALL raised the bar? No I don't accept that, and that's far from the general consensus.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:13 PM   #48
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by blackandblue View Post
I think the rule is generally true, but might not currently be true, for this simple reason: In every sport, the general athletic talent pool raises because more people worldwide are able to play.

The problem is, the state of the women's game as is allows players with very little natural athletic ability to compete at the highest levels.

Look at Graf, Martina, and Serena. Some of the most amazing female athletes ever. Now look at Azarenka. It's not even in the same ballpark. Which is why this generation is relatively poor historically.
In that case, if it's not a hard-and-fast rule that every generation is better than the previous one, then there's no basis to say the 00s Generation was better than the 90s Generation. Agreed?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:45 PM   #49
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
In that case, if it's not a hard-and-fast rule that every generation is better than the previous one, then there's no basis to say the 00s Generation was better than the 90s Generation. Agreed?
You really want to try and prove that the 90s generation is better. I wonder why. Actually in that case there is no proof that Graf/Seles were better than Navratilova/Evert either. The latter generation grew up with wood and had to adapt to graphite late in their careers. Who knows how their games would've turned out if graphite had caught on earlier. Would Evert have been the first power player on both wings instead of Seles? Who knows. What we do know is what actually happened. And the Williams sisters and their peers raised the female power game including the serve to levels not seen before. That's where the bar is and that's where it will be. Whether you like it or not. This BS about every generation must getter is silly. Tennis fans know when the bar has been raised.

And actually while on this point people like to disparage Generation Suck saying that they are not good but maybe the problem is that they haven't raised the bar above what Serena and co have done. That's why Serena is still able to win multiple slams today.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 12:03 AM   #50
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
In that case, if it's not a hard-and-fast rule that every generation is better than the previous one, then there's no basis to say the 00s Generation was better than the 90s Generation. Agreed?
So just because this current crop of players are not as good as those who came up in the early 2000's it means that the early 2000's era wasn't better than the 90's? How does that make any type of sense? I don't want to accuse you of trolling now, but..................
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 12:44 AM   #51
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by UNCLESILAS View Post
These threads always end up in pointless and endless speculation with unbearable theorizing about "peak" Graf vs "peak" Serena and so on. Things that are impossible to know, as they are never going to happen and belong to different eras, with different training methods, materials..etc. What I am sure, though, is that the actual WTA sucks, just take a look to the players beyond the top 6. Anything can happen. Sloane is the new, and seemingly only, star that is being talked or hyped about. Inconsistency a plenty, some laughable players at the top 10. I don´t know if peak Conchita beats peak Li, or peak Pierce beats peak Kvitova, but for sure the 90´s was a golden era in terms of consistent quality players all over the top 20. Arantxa, Seles, Graf, and later era Hingins, Pova, Serena. Those were the real new stars, all winning slams being under 20. Where has all that gone?
Game has changed and winning slams under 20 is a tough job now. Doesn't mean Vika or even Petra can't become stars, if they aren't already.

I don't want to enter into the lengthy discussion, i think dsanders06 makes a tremendous good point with his opening post . Comparison is always difficult and where you can say Williams sisters raised the bar you can just as easily say Steffi raised it (she was a far more consistent hitter than Martina could ever be). I don't think each generation is better than the previous and where i believe Serena is better than anyone else after 2000 i don't think she's better than Steffi.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 04:21 AM   #52
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Stop looking at stats and numbers and start looking at actual footage of the matches. Simple formulas are for simple minds. The fact is that the Williams Sisters and especially Serena have peaked the highest so far when it comes to the actual level of play. They are the current measuring stick and might be for many years to come. Current generation as represented by Azarenka, Radwanska, Kvitova and to a degree Sharapova are all inferior to the best of previous generation consisting of the WS, Henin, Clisters and Hingis. When new talent emerges that simply dismisses current young generation as easily as Serena and Kim have, we can have another conversation. But so far there have not been anyone to do so. As of 2013, the best is the 2000 generation and there can't be any discussion to challenge this fact.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 09:52 AM   #53
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
I'm talking about BOTH greatness AND "bestness" (at peak level). I agree with you both that in terms of greatness, it's really beyond debate that Serena is inferior to Graf simply because her achievements are so far below -- although, again there are some people who claim, that even in terms of pure greatness, Serena should be regarded as better simply because this era is supposedly "stronger". And it was the same in the men's game when people were claiming Federer was already greater than Sampras when he still only had about 10 Slams and no RG title (though it's obviously academic now he's surpassed Sampras in every respect).

And with regards to the debate about whether Serena would beat past generations' great players -- my issue is that, whenever we have these debates, a lot of people just mindlessly chant that "the game has evolved" since the past greats played, and that therefore the past greats would have no chance against today's greats. And that's a great shame because, even though I certainly have my opinion that Peak Graf beats Peak Serena on most surfaces, I still would be interested in seeing that debate, especially if it included players like Navratilova and Evert (players I don't know that much about in detail, and so I'd be interested to see how people who do know about the 70s/80s era in detail think those players would match up with today's players). But it's just tiresome to see some people thinking there's no debate at all, just because of baseless assumptions about how the game used to be (like "a backhand slice has no chance in today's game" even though the men's game shows that's not true, or "racquet technology has advanced too much since then" when it's actually made no significant advances since the early 90s atall).



Again, raised the bar in what sense? I accept that they raised the bar in terms of serving, that they served more powerfully than anyone in the game before -- just as Kvitova, according to the BBC, hits more powerful groundstrokes than anyone in the game before. Their games OVERALL raised the bar? No I don't accept that, and that's far from the general consensus.
Okay, you talk nice... and then I ask you this question: If it had been Maria Sharapova who mircalously had been in Serena's shoes, thus she was the queen of the castle...sitting on 15 majors. What would you've said then? That generations past still were better than current generation, that peak Graf THRUMPS peak Masha on EVERY surface?

You're just soooo totally biased against Serena, that EVERY discussion about her being a possibly goat candidate...makes you just jump out of your skin.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:16 AM   #54
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
You really want to try and prove that the 90s generation is better. I wonder why. Actually in that case there is no proof that Graf/Seles were better than Navratilova/Evert either. The latter generation grew up with wood and had to adapt to graphite late in their careers. Who knows how their games would've turned out if graphite had caught on earlier. Would Evert have been the first power player on both wings instead of Seles? Who knows. What we do know is what actually happened. And the Williams sisters and their peers raised the female power game including the serve to levels not seen before. That's where the bar is and that's where it will be. Whether you like it or not. This BS about every generation must getter is silly. Tennis fans know when the bar has been raised.

And actually while on this point people like to disparage Generation Suck saying that they are not good but maybe the problem is that they haven't raised the bar above what Serena and co have done. That's why Serena is still able to win multiple slams today.
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Originally Posted by JanNYC View Post
So just because this current crop of players are not as good as those who came up in the early 2000's it means that the early 2000's era wasn't better than the 90's? How does that make any type of sense? I don't want to accuse you of trolling now, but..................
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Originally Posted by Marty-Dom View Post
Stop looking at stats and numbers and start looking at actual footage of the matches. Simple formulas are for simple minds. The fact is that the Williams Sisters and especially Serena have peaked the highest so far when it comes to the actual level of play. They are the current measuring stick and might be for many years to come. Current generation as represented by Azarenka, Radwanska, Kvitova and to a degree Sharapova are all inferior to the best of previous generation consisting of the WS, Henin, Clisters and Hingis. When new talent emerges that simply dismisses current young generation as easily as Serena and Kim have, we can have another conversation. But so far there have not been anyone to do so. As of 2013, the best is the 2000 generation and there can't be any discussion to challenge this fact.
All of these I feel like Dsanders is smart enough to understand deep down what people mean when they say "the game keeps on evolving". It doesn't mean that every year, or every generation of players in the same age group is better than the previous one. It means that as technology/fitness progresses, the game gets tougher to compete in. People usually bring up the "game gets tougher/evolves" as a counterpoint to nostalgiatards using records like Court's 24 slams or 2,345,654,456 tour titles, Nav's 74 match win streak, etc, which are simply unattainable and shouldn't apply to contemporary players. Contemporary players in the era where way more effort is exerted on every ball, the average player has to maintain a higher level of physical fitness(no more strolling onto the court at 30+ while pregnant and winning a slam), presumably a higher rate of injury due to the increased physical aspect, and the era where improved racket technology and court homogenization has created greater parity(a zoning ballbasher ranked out of the top 50 can defeat the world #1 if everything goes her way thanks to the technology, whereas that just didn't happen in say, the 70s where you had to be more technically skilled than your opponent, and as a result the best players could count on safely making it to the last rounds of a slam if they bothered showing up).

Please stop over-analyzing/over-quantifying everything. I don't see someone claiming "Serena, the best player of a more physically demanding era is automatically greater than Steffi" as any worse than someone claiming Steffi having higher stats automatically makes her greater. Both are valid points for consideration, but the desire to pick one, or put down one iron-clad criteria screams of desperation to prove "MY FAVE IS THE BEST!!!11!", which is what debates like these usually come down to in the end
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:23 AM   #55
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Thank you Vika

And the Kvitova comparison(assuming those stats are correct), doesn't hold. Even if she's hitting her groundstrokes a couple miles per hour faster than Serena, she hasn't revolutionized the game. At the end of the day she's still playing the "big babe" style of tennis introduced by the Williams Sisters and Davenport towards the end of the 90s/early 2000s, of starting the point off with a dominating first serve, teeing off on second serves, hitting huge off of both wings even from defensive positions, and ultimately ending the point in only a few strokes. There's nothing revolutionary about playing an even lower percentage version of that game, and paling in comparison in terms of several other factors(serve compared to Serena, and movement compared to both WS). She's basically doing what Mary did a decade ago(as an aside, I highly doubt she's hitting top speeds higher than Mary or even Serena I wanna see the receipts )
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 06:28 PM   #56
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
You really want to try and prove that the 90s generation is better. I wonder why. Actually in that case there is no proof that Graf/Seles were better than Navratilova/Evert either. The latter generation grew up with wood and had to adapt to graphite late in their careers. Who knows how their games would've turned out if graphite had caught on earlier. Would Evert have been the first power player on both wings instead of Seles? Who knows. What we do know is what actually happened. And the Williams sisters and their peers raised the female power game including the serve to levels not seen before. That's where the bar is and that's where it will be. Whether you like it or not. This BS about every generation must getter is silly. Tennis fans know when the bar has been raised.

And actually while on this point people like to disparage Generation Suck saying that they are not good but maybe the problem is that they haven't raised the bar above what Serena and co have done. That's why Serena is still able to win multiple slams today.
Again: I don't want to prove the 90s Generation is better than the current era. My whole point is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to definitively measure strength of an era, though my own personal view is that the 90s Generation and 00s Generation are roughly the same (stronger in some ways, weaker in others). Which is why the stats are the only quantifiable measuring stick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanNYC View Post
So just because this current crop of players are not as good as those who came up in the early 2000's it means that the early 2000's era wasn't better than the 90's? How does that make any type of sense? I don't want to accuse you of trolling now, but..................
My point is that IF you accept that the new generation is NOT stronger than the Serena Generation, then how could you know that the Serena Generation is stronger than the Graf Generation? If by your own admission it is not true that each generation is better than the one that precedes it, what quantifiable basis is there for saying the Serena Generation is better than the Graf Generation? Apart from the fact the Williams sisters were better in one specific area (serving), which can be neutralised by the fact there are players in the new generation who are better in certain specific areas, I haven't heard any arguments yet.

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Originally Posted by L'Enfant Sauvage View Post
Thank you Vika

And the Kvitova comparison(assuming those stats are correct), doesn't hold. Even if she's hitting her groundstrokes a couple miles per hour faster than Serena, she hasn't revolutionized the game. At the end of the day she's still playing the "big babe" style of tennis introduced by the Williams Sisters and Davenport towards the end of the 90s/early 2000s, of starting the point off with a dominating first serve, teeing off on second serves, hitting huge off of both wings even from defensive positions, and ultimately ending the point in only a few strokes. There's nothing revolutionary about playing an even lower percentage version of that game, and paling in comparison in terms of several other factors(serve compared to Serena, and movement compared to both WS). She's basically doing what Mary did a decade ago(as an aside, I highly doubt she's hitting top speeds higher than Mary or even Serena I wanna see the receipts )
I'm sorry, but again, this post is based on the circular argumentation that it HAS been universally-accepted that the Williams Generation was better than the previous one

But anyway, if you don't accept the Kvitova example -- Moby made an excellent point in the other thread that Stosur is capable of producing MUCH heavier topspin than any player in history, and, given how prevalent topspin is in the men's game (and it really is a general rule that trends in the men's game arrive in the women's game about 10 years later), she is certainly progressing the sport. Does that mean, just because Stosur is better than Serena in that one respect, that she is better player overall? I certainly don't think so (despite their record in Slams indicating otherwise ). And if you don't accept Stosur is revolutionising the game with her topspin, then I CERTAINLY don't accept that the Williams sisters revolutionised the game "just" by serving better than anyone else in the game before (and yes, the serve is the only area they exceeded all predecessors, despite American commentators' bizarre mythologising that they were the first to turn defence into attack, which doesn't stand up to scrutiny for anyone who's seen more than 10 minutes of Graf playing ).


* (And the BBC were going orgasmic after the 2011 Wimbledon final about how Kvitova was the "hardest hitter" at Wimbledon ever. They put up the average groundstroke speeds of the best matches from Venus/Serena/Sharapova and then showed Kvitova's average for that match. Admittedly, iirc the data MIGHT have just been based on Wimbledon matches alone.)
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 06:45 PM   #57
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Drivel from idiot troll
I've never seen anyone claim they were the first to turn defence into attack, every great since Court has been able to do that to some extent. Show me an example of a commentator claiming no-one had done this before.

Obviously where the Williams sisters revolutionised the game was by hitting hard off both flanks (Davenport, Seles, Pierce) combined with athleticism (Graf) combined with record breaking and nigh unbreakable serves (Navratilova). No-one before them had brought all these things together into one package, no-one has since. The bar is still standing where Serena and Venus set it in 2001-2002.

As was said, people watching the game know when the bar has been raised. You've got nothing.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 06:54 PM   #58
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Again: I don't want to prove the 90s Generation is better than the current era. My whole point is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to definitively measure strength of an era, though my own personal view is that the 90s Generation and 00s Generation are roughly the same (stronger in some ways, weaker in others). Which is why the stats are the only quantifiable measuring stick.



My point is that IF you accept that the new generation is NOT stronger than the Serena Generation, then how could you know that the Serena Generation is stronger than the Graf Generation? If by your own admission it is not true that each generation is better than the one that precedes it, what quantifiable basis is there for saying the Serena Generation is better than the Graf Generation? Apart from the fact the Williams sisters were better in one specific area (serving), which can be neutralised by the fact there are players in the new generation who are better in certain specific areas, I haven't heard any arguments yet.



I'm sorry, but again, this post is based on the circular argumentation that it HAS been universally-accepted that the Williams Generation was better than the previous one

But anyway, if you don't accept the Kvitova example -- Moby made an excellent point in the other thread that Stosur is capable of producing MUCH heavier topspin than any player in history, and, given how prevalent topspin is in the men's game (and it really is a general rule that trends in the men's game arrive in the women's game about 10 years later), she is certainly progressing the sport. Does that mean, just because Stosur is better than Serena in that one respect, that she is better player overall? I certainly don't think so (despite their record in Slams indicating otherwise ). And if you don't accept Stosur is revolutionising the game with her topspin, then I CERTAINLY don't accept that the Williams sisters revolutionised the game "just" by serving better than anyone else in the game before (and yes, the serve is the only area they exceeded all predecessors, despite American commentators' bizarre mythologising that they were the first to turn defence into attack, which doesn't stand up to scrutiny for anyone who's seen more than 10 minutes of Graf playing ).


* (And the BBC were going orgasmic after the 2011 Wimbledon final about how Kvitova was the "hardest hitter" at Wimbledon ever. They put up the average groundstroke speeds of the best matches from Venus/Serena/Sharapova and then showed Kvitova's average for that match. Admittedly, iirc the data MIGHT have just been based on Wimbledon matches alone.)

IF they didnt revolutionize the game than why is Serena, more so now than Venus, still winning tournaments on the tour and thumping almost all of the top players consistently? If they didn't raise the bar I don't really know how we can say anyone has revolutionized the game by your logic?

You bring up the fact that their serves have been better than anyone before them like that is something to slouch at? Are you freaking kidding me dude?? You have to really gain some perspective if you seriously think all they do better than their predecessors is serve. Even if that were true, holding serve is the most fundamental method to win in tennis, THAT alone revolutionized the game. If Graf or Navratilova had Serena's serve they would have way more titles than they have even now.

Serena and Venus are just as great of athletes as Graf was especially Venus for that matter. They were the first to do ALL of the things that Graf, Navratilova, Seles, and even Davenport could do in one package. They can serve big, finish points off at the net, hit big returns off serves, and combined have outperformed almost EVERYONE of their counterpart's achievements. Taking a Peak v. Peak out of it if you can't accept that the WS changed the game of tennis then we have nothing further to discuss here sir.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 07:06 PM   #59
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by I_Will2 View Post
IF they didnt revolutionize the game than why is Serena, more so now than Venus, still winning tournaments on the tour and thumping almost all of the top players consistently? If they didn't raise the bar I don't really know how we can say anyone has revolutionized the game by your logic?

You bring up the fact that their serves have been better than anyone before them like that is something to slouch at? Are you freaking kidding me dude?? You have to really gain some perspective if you seriously think all they do better than their predecessors is serve. Even if that were true, holding serve is the most fundamental method to win in tennis, THAT alone revolutionized the game. If Graf or Navratilova had Serena's serve they would have way more titles than they have even now.

Serena and Venus are just as great of athletes as Graf was especially Venus for that matter. They were the first to do ALL of the things that Graf, Navratilova, Seles, and even Davenport could do in one package. They can serve big, finish points off at the net, hit big returns off serves, and combined have outperformed almost EVERYONE of their counterpart's achievements. Taking a Peak v. Peak out of it if you can't accept that the WS changed the game of tennis then we have nothing further to discuss here sir.


THIS!!!! Preach baby preach ...btw this was a bait thread, should've known.
The statement the OP poses is certainly a paradox but in this case it doesn't stand a chance against the WS esp. Serena Serena's into a 3rd generation & still kicking arse
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 07:45 PM   #60
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

What makes me laugh the most is that Dsander hatred & jealously of Serena is soooo deep that he even will deny that he will bet on Peak Graf to beat Peak Serena in a match.

He and all of the Serena haters know, if their lives dependent on it, they will bet that Peak Serena will beat Peak Graf any day of the week.

Dsanders you can lie to us and yourself all you want, but it's ok I know deep down inside you know a healthy & focus Serena is the greatest that has ever played the game, peak Graf will not win in any surface except maybe clay (and that's a BIG maybe, Serena serve's better, covers the court better, is faster, and is stronger, plus she's dangerous at the net).

It's ok you can deny it all you want, you know Peak Serena will beat Peak Graf. No need to debate it, because I know you're just lying to yourself because of your hatred haha
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