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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 07:49 PM   #31
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

There's currently a new generation of players, most of them suck except Vika who can't consistently beat Serena or Maria from a previous generation, so your point is? Ask this question again in the year 2020
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 07:59 PM   #32
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
Don't worry, I didn't really think you did think that.

Still, helluva lot of trouble to go to to get up the noses of a few Serena fans. I actually think there is a more eloquent point lurking in here somewhere. Something along the lines that any comparison between players of different generations rests to some extent on assumptions that not everybody is likely to share. Which is why most GOAT discussions soon descend into silly bickering at cross purposes.
But, in fairness, I really am making a point for ALL sports, not just the WTA. Like I said in the OP, it does seem to me that ATP commentators are even MORE fickle and subscribe to the illogical "this era is so much better than previous ones", to the extent that I've genuinely seen on Men'stennisforums people saying Peak Sampras and Agassi would have no chance against Murray

And just to expand on the point I was making in the OP -- I'm pretty sure that there'll be many posters on TF in 10 years' time, and many commentators in the tennis media, who WILL be saying that the new generation will be better than the Williams/Belgians/Sharapova era, on the basis of nothing whatsoever, and I'm sure many of the people who are currently huge tennis fans would be amazed by it.

I agree with you that when ANYONE starts introducing entirely subjective criteria and assumptions (such as "the game is so much stronger/has more depth than back then") -- which is why imo GOAT debates have to rest entirely on quantifiable achievements.



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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
What are you talking about?!

The gap between the Serena and the current gap is waaayyyyyy wider, than the gap between Graf/Court/Nav/Evert vs Serena. And even then nobody says Serena is greater than those four..she has ways to go. She's in the conversation, that's all.

Nobody of the current generation is even in sniffing distance of Hingis for Christ's sake. Let them surpass Hingis, then catching up with Vee/Juju, then Seles.... so please stop with your stupidity already.
Sorry, but look at the other thread -- many people HAVE been saying Serena is better, that Peak Graf would have no chance against Peak Serena, etc, using the "the game has evolved" logic.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 08:31 PM   #33
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post

Sorry, but look at the other thread -- many people HAVE been saying Serena is better, that Peak Graf would have no chance against Peak Serena, etc, using the "the game has evolved" logic.
Peak Serena vs Peak Graf..could be interesting, but that doesn't mean Serena is GREATER. You're playing with words...nice try though.

Of the current generation...NONE are greater than Serena, NONE beat her at her peak.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 09:27 PM   #34
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Either it's an ironclad rule that every generation exceeds the previous one, or it's not a rule at all, seeing as there would be all kind of subjective ways of saying a certain era is not stronger than the previous one.
Since you can't measure it objectively, it is subjective but general consensus matters. General consensus like how a certain player or players lift the game to a higher level matters. Like Navratilova with her introduction of weight training and athleticism. Seles with her power game from both wings and the Williams sisters with their abilities to play the power game defensively and turning it into offense and the serve becoming a major weapon.

If the next generation wants to be greater, they need to prove to the tennis community that they've added something that hasn't been added by previous generations and convince the majority of people that they've lifted the game. So far that hasn't happened. That's why the Sisters and the early 2000s generation are the standard right now.

Even in sports where there are objective measures like athletics and swimming, some records can stand for years. The races generally get faster but there will still be that someone that still lifted the sport far beyond anyone else. That's where Serena is right now.

The general consensus is that she is one of the greatest but not the greatest over all other players. You are the one trying hard to prove that she doesn't belong in the greatest players argument discussion which she does. However, she is not the one and only Greatest player of all time. Greatness comes in many forms. Suzanne Lenglen has as good an argument as any woman in history of tennis to be the Greatest player ever.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 09:36 PM   #35
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Since you can't measure it objectively, it is subjective but general consensus matters. General consensus like how a certain player or players lift the game to a higher level matters. Like Navratilova with her introduction of weight training and athleticism. Seles with her power game from both wings and the Williams sisters with their abilities to play the power game defensively and turning it into offense and the serve becoming a major weapon.

If the next generation wants to be greater, they need to prove to the tennis community that they've added something that hasn't been added by previous generations and convince the majority of people that they've lifted the game. So far that hasn't happened. That's why the Sisters and the early 2000s generation are the standard right now.

Even in sports where there are objective measures like athletics and swimming, some records can stand for years. The races generally get faster but there will still be that someone that still lifted the sport far beyond anyone else. That's where Serena is right now.

The general consensus is that she is one of the greatest but not the greatest over all other players. You are the one trying hard to prove that she doesn't belong in the greatest players argument discussion which she does. However, she is not the one and only Greatest player of all time. Greatness comes in many forms. Suzanne Lenglen has as good an argument as any woman in history of tennis to be the Greatest player ever.
Preach, preach!
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:16 PM   #36
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Since you can't measure it objectively, it is subjective but general consensus matters. General consensus like how a certain player or players lift the game to a higher level matters. Like Navratilova with her introduction of weight training and athleticism. Seles with her power game from both wings and the Williams sisters with their abilities to play the power game defensively and turning it into offense and the serve becoming a major weapon.

If the next generation wants to be greater, they need to prove to the tennis community that they've added something that hasn't been added by previous generations and convince the majority of people that they've lifted the game. So far that hasn't happened. That's why the Sisters and the early 2000s generation are the standard right now.

Even in sports where there are objective measures like athletics and swimming, some records can stand for years. The races generally get faster but there will still be that someone that still lifted the sport far beyond anyone else. That's where Serena is right now.

The general consensus is that she is one of the greatest but not the greatest over all other players. You are the one trying hard to prove that she doesn't belong in the greatest players argument discussion which she does. However, she is not the one and only Greatest player of all time. Greatness comes in many forms. Suzanne Lenglen has as good an argument as any woman in history of tennis to be the Greatest player ever.
But again, you're building this on the premise that it has been proven that the Williams sisters lifted the bar, and that can NOT be proven in any quantifiable way. If all you have is that "the Williams sisters had a better serve than anyone previously in the game", then I can give you the fact that Kvitova* can produce better raw pace off the ground than Serena ever has, as proven by the BBC at Wimbledon 2011. Does this mean that Kvitova is automatically a better player at peak level and greater than Serena, even if she ends up achieving much less, just because she is better (and probably the best in the history of the game) in that one very narrow and specific regard?


[* I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe Kvitova will be the best player of this generation, I'm using it as a hypothetical example.]
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:18 PM   #37
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
But again, you're building this on the premise that it has been proven that the Williams sisters lifted the bar, and that can NOT be proven in any quantifiable way. If all you have is that "the Williams sisters had a better serve than anyone previously in the game", then I can give you the fact that Kvitova* can produce better raw pace off the ground than Serena ever has, as proven by the BBC at Wimbledon 2011. Does this mean that Kvitova is automatically a better player at peak level and greater than Serena, even if she ends up achieving much less, just because she is better (and probably the best in the history of the game) in that one very narrow and specific regard?


[* I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe Kvitova will be the best player of this generation, I'm using it as a hypothetical example.]
Does "general consensus" mean anything to you?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:27 PM   #38
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
But again, you're building this on the premise that it has been proven that the Williams sisters lifted the bar, and that can NOT be proven in any quantifiable way. If all you have is that "the Williams sisters had a better serve than anyone previously in the game", then I can give you the fact that Kvitova* can produce better raw pace off the ground than Serena ever has, as proven by the BBC at Wimbledon 2011. Does this mean that Kvitova is automatically a better player at peak level and greater than Serena, even if she ends up achieving much less, just because she is better (and probably the best in the history of the game) in that one very narrow and specific regard?


[* I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe Kvitova will be the best player of this generation, I'm using it as a hypothetical example.]
So what is really your point, dsanders?! That Serena isn't a goat-candidate? You keep confusing when people discuss PEAK vs PEAK with being GREATER.


Peak vs Peak, we've seen Steffi, we've seen Serena...and people are discussing what might or might not happen. Some people think that Serena's PEAK form might be the best. That's different than saying she's the GREATEST.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:29 PM   #39
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
But, in fairness, I really am making a point for ALL sports, not just the WTA. Like I said in the OP, it does seem to me that ATP commentators are even MORE fickle and subscribe to the illogical "this era is so much better than previous ones", to the extent that I've genuinely seen on Men'stennisforums people saying Peak Sampras and Agassi would have no chance against Murray

And just to expand on the point I was making in the OP -- I'm pretty sure that there'll be many posters on TF in 10 years' time, and many commentators in the tennis media, who WILL be saying that the new generation will be better than the Williams/Belgians/Sharapova era, on the basis of nothing whatsoever, and I'm sure many of the people who are currently huge tennis fans would be amazed by it.

I agree with you that when ANYONE starts introducing entirely subjective criteria and assumptions (such as "the game is so much stronger/has more depth than back then") -- which is why imo GOAT debates have to rest entirely on quantifiable achievements.

Sorry, but look at the other thread -- many people HAVE been saying Serena is better, that Peak Graf would have no chance against Peak Serena, etc, using the "the game has evolved" logic.
I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. I may feel as though Serena at her best is better than anyone else, past or present, at their best, but I still think to be considered "the greatest" you have to have the numbers, and Graf still has the numbers. However, if you were to ask me who i'd pick to win a match, peak Graf or peak Serena, i'd take Serena every day and twice on sundays. To say that every generation is "better" than the previous one is absolute nonsense, as far as i'm concerned. What has this generation done to show they should even be mentioned in the same sentence as that crop that came through in the early 2000's?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:30 PM   #40
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I used to believe that up until around 2008.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:37 PM   #41
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
But again, you're building this on the premise that it has been proven that the Williams sisters lifted the bar, and that can NOT be proven in any quantifiable way. If all you have is that "the Williams sisters had a better serve than anyone previously in the game", then I can give you the fact that Kvitova* can produce better raw pace off the ground than Serena ever has, as proven by the BBC at Wimbledon 2011. Does this mean that Kvitova is automatically a better player at peak level and greater than Serena, even if she ends up achieving much less, just because she is better (and probably the best in the history of the game) in that one very narrow and specific regard?


[* I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe Kvitova will be the best player of this generation, I'm using it as a hypothetical example.]
So, are you saying that it is NOT the general consensus that the Williams sisters raised the bar?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:46 PM   #42
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
OK, so this is largely stemming from the discussion about whether Graf would be the best in today's game. An argument often used in arguments of this kind is that the more recent great player is always better than the greatest player of the previous generation, simply because a sport as a general rule is constantly evolving.

Bearing this in mind, does this mean that Kvitova or Princessrenka or whoever is the best player of their generation, will be automatically greater than Serena, even if they achieve less?

This isn't intended to be a trollbait thread (not entirely anyway ). It's not JUST this board that uses this type of logic, I've seen it used in all sorts of different sports where fans are trying to argue the greatest player/team of that day are better than a previous generation even if their achievements don't match up. And imo, if people think that the best player of "Generation Azarenka" WOULDN'T be better than Serena, then imo the logic is self-defeating and it can't be used when comparing the greats of today to former generations either

Thoughts?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:47 PM   #43
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Not always true.
Just look at Clijsters when she returned. Played no matches for several years, and snatched wigs immediately.
I'm sure Serena would still win slams if she retired and came back in 2-3 years.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:49 PM   #44
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
So what is really your point, dsanders?! That Serena isn't a goat-candidate? You keep confusing when people discuss PEAK vs PEAK with being GREATER.


Peak vs Peak, we've seen Steffi, we've seen Serena...and people are discussing what might or might not happen. Some people think that Serena's PEAK form might be the best. That's different than saying she's the GREATEST.
Good luck figuring that one out. I don't think he even knows anymore....
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:52 PM   #45
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Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

These threads always end up in pointless and endless speculation with unbearable theorizing about "peak" Graf vs "peak" Serena and so on. Things that are impossible to know, as they are never going to happen and belong to different eras, with different training methods, materials..etc. What I am sure, though, is that the actual WTA sucks, just take a look to the players beyond the top 6. Anything can happen. Sloane is the new, and seemingly only, star that is being talked or hyped about. Inconsistency a plenty, some laughable players at the top 10. I don´t know if peak Conchita beats peak Li, or peak Pierce beats peak Kvitova, but for sure the 90´s was a golden era in terms of consistent quality players all over the top 20. Arantxa, Seles, Graf, and later era Hingins, Pova, Serena. Those were the real new stars, all winning slams being under 20. Where has all that gone?
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