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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 04:10 PM   #376
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Peak Graf certainly beats Peak Maria and Peak Princessrenka on every surface.

(Though, lol at the suggestion that Maria would've had no chance of winning a RG title in Graf's era. Again, this misconception sums up how little many people here seem to know about Graf, that they think she was some claycourt specialist or something. Clay was her worst surface by far; she had some of her worst defeats there, and even when she won, she often did it by playing very ugly tennis. Even though peak-v-peak Graf would beat Maria on clay, I certainly think 2012 Claypova could've beaten for example 1994 Graf at RG, the Graf that got beat down by Pierce. Granted, I don't think Maria would've won a Wimbledon final against any version of Graf though, because Steffi was simply THAT good on grass even in her off-years.)
Okay, good...so what took you so long? You're so busy discussing Serena who ain't your fav, and this is all you have to comment about Graf vs Maria, who IS your fav?

And Clijsters only player who can claim she played as good defense as Graf, huh?! You sure know how to play favorites.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 04:53 PM   #377
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
No-one has claimed Graf AS SHE IS TODAY (as a 43-year-old) would be able to compete. We're talking about IF GRAF WAS BORN 15 YEARS LATER AND WAS COMPETING IN HER PRIME IN THIS ERA.

Please join Bandabou in taking some reading comprehension lessons.
You really are an odd fellow.
Are you like this off-line as well?
At any rate, if no one made the claim then I stand corrected. However, it seemed to me to be the case yesterday. No biggie.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 05:38 PM   #378
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by SerenaSiren View Post
Dear it was an Exhibition and age is irrelevant..It was just a public Display to
entertain the crowd and 2nd Date's 3rd round run is not the barometer of what would be
steffi's ranking if she played this season In fact Date was just lucky not with the
Draw but with how her opponents played..Try to think that even Date was able to trouble graf
in the latter part of her career.
Age is irrelevant??
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 05:46 PM   #379
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

She would be a top 30 player but I don't think she could get into the top 20. There are too many players whose style of play she would struggle with. I don't think she could beat anybody in the current top 10 (maybe with the exception of Errani) She would lose to Bartoli because Marion's game resembles too much of that of Seles which Graf always find difficult to handle. Other players she would struggle against include Cibulkova (her game is similar to that of her nemesis, Coetzer), Niculescu (she would find no answers to Monica's quirky style of play) and Kanepi (who would overcome Graf with her accuracy and sheer power).
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 05:58 PM   #380
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

Seles>>>>>>>Bartoli+Niculescu and Coetzer>>Civulkova
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 06:05 PM   #381
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Seles>>>>>>>Bartoli+Niculescu and Coetzer>>Civulkova
that's an understatement......so generous of you......
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 06:18 PM   #382
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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that's an understatement......so generous of you......
My post would had been full of >>>
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 07:28 PM   #383
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by darrinbaker00 View Post
Please tell me you were joking (unsuccessfully, may I add) with that last part. Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall were two of the greatest to ever pick up a racquet. Period.
It's funny you took offense - not to the post I was replying to - but to my comment, which was in fact a sarcastic retort to RVD's actually ignorant and offensive comment that "the serve & volley didn't require players to be fast".
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:07 PM   #384
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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I was addressing those who felt that Graf cold still successfully compete today.
As I stated earlier, if a 47-year-old Martina Navratilova could win a round at Wimbledon, why couldn't a 43-year-old Graf?
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 10:10 PM   #385
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
It's funny you took offense - not to the post I was replying to - but to my comment, which was in fact a sarcastic retort to RVD's actually ignorant and offensive comment that "the serve & volley didn't require players to be fast".
Referring to two of the greatest players of all time as "mugs," even in jest, is, in my opinion, equally ignorant and offensive.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:12 PM   #386
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by machinist View Post
She would be a top 30 player but I don't think she could get into the top 20. There are too many players whose style of play she would struggle with. I don't think she could beat anybody in the current top 10 (maybe with the exception of Errani) She would lose to Bartoli because Marion's game resembles too much of that of Seles which Graf always find difficult to handle. Other players she would struggle against include Cibulkova (her game is similar to that of her nemesis, Coetzer), Niculescu (she would find no answers to Monica's quirky style of play) and Kanepi (who would overcome Graf with her accuracy and sheer power).
Seriously? Graf's era had plenty of "quirky" players. Kanepi has such accuracy that she wins OH so much! and Cibulkova, wow, she is just a human backboard.


Anyone who thinks that peak-Steffi couldn't compete with the top players of this generation is ridiculous or has never watched tennis before the year 2011. Kimiko Date is 43. She has won against NUMEROUS top 50 players in her comeback, including top 10 players. Kimiko at her prime didn't beat Graf. Players like Tatiana Garbin got more successful AFTER age 30...simply unheard of in tennis, but yet we are led to believe the game keeps getting better and better? Francesca Schiavone (one of my favorites) won Roland Garros...then finished runner up the next year! FRANCESCA SCHIAVONE! Graf couldn't out-compete Franny? Come on.
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:15 PM   #387
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by darrinbaker00 View Post
Referring to two of the greatest players of all time as "mugs," even in jest, is, in my opinion, equally ignorant and offensive.
He was being sarcastic. So..
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Old Feb 1st, 2013, 11:19 PM   #388
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by Joseosu19 View Post
Seriously? Graf's era had plenty of "quirky" players. Kanepi has such accuracy that she wins OH so much! and Cibulkova, wow, she is just a human backboard.


Anyone who thinks that peak-Steffi couldn't compete with the top players of this generation is ridiculous or has never watched tennis before the year 2011. Kimiko Date is 43. She has won against NUMEROUS top 50 players in her comeback, including top 10 players. Kimiko at her prime didn't beat Graf. Players like Tatiana Garbin got more successful AFTER age 30...simply unheard of in tennis, but yet we are led to believe the game keeps getting better and better? Francesca Schiavone (one of my favorites) won Roland Garros...then finished runner up the next year! FRANCESCA SCHIAVONE! Graf couldn't out-compete Franny? Come on.
Kimiko in fact beat Graf in 1996 Fed Cup. But yeah i agree mostly, Graf at worst she would part of today's top 5 at her best, and for SURE she would be fighthing for slams.

This is funny because actually when Graf got injured in 1997 early and endured shameful loses to Coetzer until Roland Garros, and then Venus exploded at the Usopen, Davenport got into the top 3, Serena came in to the tour to beat Seles and Pierce out right, all of the sudden the GAME had moved on, Graf was too old and her game was not enough to compete at the top with this new poweful generation in the womens game, those were the comments back in 1998, Anna K, Serena W, Hingis all of them threw shades to Graf early 1998, and she surely silenced the doubters with her French Open and WImbledon run. I can really understand why Graf, who already had won everything in Tennis, fullfilled her goal in 1999 which was to get competitive at the slams and win one more, and lost her desire to continue on. She already had a long carreer, thousand of matches IMO. That was enough
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 12:10 AM   #389
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
It's funny you took offense - not to the post I was replying to - but to my comment, which was in fact a sarcastic retort to RVD's actually ignorant and offensive comment that "the serve & volley didn't require players to be fast".
Not nearly as ignorant and offensive as someone not being able to handle other poster's opinions.

But okay, let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct.

What isn't the Serve & Volley style of play pervasive in today's game?

Also,

DO you honestly believe that players today are slower in general than in
Graf's era?

And please, this time, try to answer with with a bit more maturity.
I'm not going to attack you, but if you like, I can certainly reciprocate and do so if you like.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2013, 12:25 AM   #390
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Re: Agassi: Graf would be the best in today's game

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Not nearly as ignorant and offensive as someone not being able to handle other poster's opinions.

But okay, let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct.

What isn't the Serve & Volley style of play pervasive in today's game?
It's not an opinion if it is just factually wrong. Serve & volley is phased out for many reasons:
- Players playing S&V tend to need more to reach their peak and master all elements of their game. It's not seen as a profitable style of tennis to teach at most academies.
- The courts have been slowed down and homogenised. The last time Wimbledon played very slick was in 2001. Since then they seem to have switched progressively to slower grass with a higher, more even bounce which for obvious reasons benefit the baseliners. Didn't the ATP start using larger and heavier balls to slow the game down too?
- Most importantly, racket technology and especially string technology have improved by leaps and bounds over the last years. Increased sweet spots means you can now hit the ball pretty much anywhere on your racket face and still make a controlled powerful shot, which is very useful when you are under pressure and on the run and behind the baseline (the player being forced to pass is in a defensive position). Luxillon Big Banger, and Babolat RPM and other similar strings have made it much easier to generate topspin, which allows players to hit dipping shots and acute angled passing shots much more easily.

^ On my last point, it's not surprising that Schiavone and Stosur both emerged as top contenders around 2010, when Babolat pushed out their new string.

Quote:
DO you honestly believe that players today are slower in general than in Graf's era?
No, I think the players outside the top 10 or top 20 have gotten faster/fitter. But there is not so much difference at the top level, i.e. players who are legitimate slam contenders. I do think that players overall now have more stamina because of the longer matches.
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