"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving" - Page 2 - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Feb 1st, 2013, 12:19 AM   #16
country flag Orbis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,860
Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future Orbis has a brilliant future
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Second statement is true, first isn't...whatever era you're born into, you play whoever is your competition across the net. And really, the further apart 2 players are in time, the more difficult it is to compare them. It really just becomes subjective eventually, how much each person gives weight to certain factors such as competition, tour size, training. etc. will vary. That being said, I think Serena is a greater player than Margaret Court ever was And not just because Court's a crotchety old homophobe...
Orbis is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Feb 1st, 2013, 12:22 AM   #17
country flag dsanders06
-PREMIUM MEMBER-
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 15,115
dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowking View Post
Second statement is true, first isn't...whatever era you're born into, you play whoever is your competition across the net. And really, the further apart 2 players are in time, the more difficult it is to compare them. It really just becomes subjective eventually, how much each person gives weight to certain factors such as competition, tour size, training. etc. will vary. That being said, I think Serena is a greater player than Margaret Court ever was And not just because Court's a crotchety old homophobe...
Agreed.
dsanders06 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 12:23 AM   #18
country flag Roookie
Senior Member
 
Roookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,383
Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute Roookie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

We don't call them Generation Suck (Azarenka, Kvitova, Wozniacki) for nothing.
Roookie is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 12:25 AM   #19
country flag iWill
Senior Member
 
iWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,122
iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute iWill has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
But see (and I really am trying to keep this as polite as possible so that this doesn't get locked ), here you are completely contradicting what you said in the other thread
I will just let you keep thinking that.
__________________
*****************
لعبة، مجموعة، ومباراة وليامز.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProdigy555 View Post
*inserts a couple fingers into you*
iWill is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 12:30 AM   #20
country flag *JR*
Senior Member
 
*JR*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Online
Posts: 33,386
*JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute *JR* has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Regarding the phrase:

"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

There's a reason, @ least in most big money sports. Simply that the money increases the number of kids trained to play whichever, and the sophistication of the training.
__________________
My current avatar is hot RT presenter Sophie Shevardnadze.

YUG flag, because it never should have split up.
*JR* is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 02:41 AM   #21
country flag binky-GOAT
Senior Member
 
binky-GOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,800
binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of binky-GOAT has much to be proud of
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

In WTA, the game is devolving. It is becoming primitive and less sophisticated.
binky-GOAT is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 03:45 AM   #22
moby
Senior Member
 
moby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 13,464
moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute moby has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

The average college math major knows more math than Archimedes. Does that that make them better mathematicians?
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

Obviously Serena plays very formidable tennis now (or rather at her peak), but do you think she would have that same game if Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles didn't come before her? What if she were playing in the early 90s as a contemporary of Graf and Seles? Would the Williamses have reined in their aggressive games if Legend Wingis didn't make them pay for their unforced errors in their formative years?

Like Serena, Evert-Navratilova-Graf all played roughly against 3 generations of tennis (except in their dotage they had to play against actual greats-to-be, and not Generation Suck) and came out on top a lot. That's all anyone can do, really.
__________________
A single flow'r he sent me, since we met./All tenderly his messenger he chose;
Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - One perfect rose.
I knew the language of the floweret;/'My fragile leaves,' it said, 'his heart enclose.'
Love long has taken for his amulet/One perfect rose.
Why is it no one ever sent me yet/One perfect limousine, do you suppose?
Ah no, it's always just my luck to get/One perfect rose.

Last edited by moby : Feb 1st, 2013 at 03:55 AM.
moby is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 04:41 AM   #23
ElusiveChanteuse
Senior Member
 
ElusiveChanteuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 79,153
ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute ElusiveChanteuse has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

"generation" means all the player as a whole. Not just Vika, Petra, Aga etc. The whole generation doesn't just evolve with these few players.
ElusiveChanteuse is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 05:13 AM   #24
bandabou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 39,185
bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

What's it with Dsanders and all these threads trying to bring Serena down? Ok good..Vika and Kvitova are gonna be better than Serena in his eyes..does that mean that they're gonna be greater than Sharapova ( who is from another generation) too?

Why's dsanders always discussing other players who aren't even his fav?
bandabou is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 06:10 AM   #25
country flag Sam L
Sunset, Moonrise, Winter
 
Sam L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 31,562
Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute Sam L has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I don't think you can say every generation is better than the last one. But once in a while, there comes a generation that lifts the bar. Monica Seles is often thought of as a transformational player in the women's game because she brought power on both wings and a strong baseline game.

The generation of Pierce, Capriati, Davenport, Williams, Clijsters, Henin etc... all took this concept to the next level. That's why the early 2000s is often seen as a sort of Golden Age in women's tennis.

Before, Seles was the only one hitting like that. Now you have to hit like her to win slams. That's where Hingis fell behind because she couldn't keep up when the bar got lifted even though she herself actually improved.

So until another generation comes along that lifts the bar like that, I'd say that generation is the standard.

And as Serena was the last woman to hold all four majors and doing so during that period, I guess that makes her by default the standard female tennis player as well. I mean, let's face it, which female player wouldn't kill to have a serve like that?
__________________
Have I not my talent left? Can I not, like Monica, Serena, Marion, acquire for myself what you would never have given me? - Bel Grugnito Diva

Pas de Quatre: Swan Lake, Giselle, The Nutcracker, Coppélia
Sam L is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 07:49 AM   #26
country flag stromatolite
Senior Member
 
stromatolite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 18,068
stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

It's interesting to discuss how the game changes and evolves over time. But the statement that every generation is always better than the previous one is not a very promising way to initiate such a discussion, even if it's not (entirely) intended as trollbait
stromatolite is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 07:53 AM   #27
country flag BH both wings
Senior Member
 
BH both wings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,210
BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of BH both wings has much to be proud of
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asadinator View Post
In WTA, the game is devolving. It is becoming primitive and less sophisticated.
But it still becomes more effective. You know, the fitness function of evolution is not about beauty or sophistication, it's about success.

However, you cannot compare different generations in sports, especially if they don't compete directly. Even in sports where performance is measurable (athletics etc.), too many things evolve: equipment, training methods, doping, diet ...

If you did time-machine the '88 Graf to the tour right now, she wouldn't stand a chance. And I'm pretty sure, if you time-machined S.Williams to the 2030s, she would be lucky to see a second week of a GS once in a while ...

But that is no base for a comparison.
BH both wings is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 03:18 PM   #28
country flag dsanders06
-PREMIUM MEMBER-
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 15,115
dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute dsanders06 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
It's interesting to discuss how the game changes and evolves over time. But the statement that every generation is always better than the previous one is not a very promising way to initiate such a discussion, even if it's not (entirely) intended as trollbait
For the record, I personally don't see any of the new generation so far as having more potential/talent than Serena, and I would only consider any of them to be greater than her if they exceed her achievements.

My point is (even if it's not the most eloquent point I've ever made) is that, in debates comparing Serena to Graf/Navratilova/Evert, many people (not always Serena fans) are quick to say that, even though Serena has achieved less, her achievements have more weight simply because this era is (so the theory goes) stronger and better due to sport always evolving. And my point is, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, those same people would have to say that if Azarenka/Kvitova/Stephens/Keys/Vekic/whoever got to 10 Slams or something, they would surely have to be considered better than Serena (again, ONLY going by the logic that they're applying to comparisons between Serena and former generations).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
I don't think you can say every generation is better than the last one. But once in a while, there comes a generation that lifts the bar. Monica Seles is often thought of as a transformational player in the women's game because she brought power on both wings and a strong baseline game.

The generation of Pierce, Capriati, Davenport, Williams, Clijsters, Henin etc... all took this concept to the next level. That's why the early 2000s is often seen as a sort of Golden Age in women's tennis.

Before, Seles was the only one hitting like that. Now you have to hit like her to win slams. That's where Hingis fell behind because she couldn't keep up when the bar got lifted even though she herself actually improved.

So until another generation comes along that lifts the bar like that, I'd say that generation is the standard.

And as Serena was the last woman to hold all four majors and doing so during that period, I guess that makes her by default the standard female tennis player as well. I mean, let's face it, which female player wouldn't kill to have a serve like that?
But see, if you start making exceptions to the "each era is better than the last one" theory, then the whole argument for Serena being better than Graf/Navratilova/Evert collapses, because it's so easy for people to justifiably argue that the current era isn't stronger than the 1990s Era at all. Saying that the current era is stronger is entirely subjective, and any argument pointing to a general rule that the sport generally always evolves will, again, mean that you would have to accept by that argument's logical limits that Serena would be exceeded by the next generation. Either it's an ironclad rule that every generation exceeds the previous one, or it's not a rule at all, seeing as there would be all kind of subjective ways of saying a certain era is not stronger than the previous one.

(and for the record, even if the last few days I've been doing a good impression of a Steffica Greles Blastfromthepast-ian, I don't believe the current era is weaker than the 1990s. I think it's stronger in some ways and weaker in others, but overall, there isn't any quantifiable way in which this era is overall stronger than the 90s, or that it's harder to dominate the sport to the extent Graf did now than it used to be. And that's why I don't accept the argument that Serena is greater than players that have accomplished more than her, simply because of the era she's in.)
dsanders06 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 04:31 PM   #29
country flag stromatolite
Senior Member
 
stromatolite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 18,068
stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute stromatolite has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
For the record, I personally don't see any of the new generation so far as having more potential/talent than Serena, and I would only consider any of them to be greater than her if they exceed her achievements.

My point is (even if it's not the most eloquent point I've ever made) is that, in debates comparing Serena to Graf/Navratilova/Evert, many people (not always Serena fans) are quick to say that, even though Serena has achieved less, her achievements have more weight simply because this era is (so the theory goes) stronger and better due to sport always evolving. And my point is, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, those same people would have to say that if Azarenka/Kvitova/Stephens/Keys/Vekic/whoever got to 10 Slams or something, they would surely have to be considered better than Serena (again, ONLY going by the logic that they're applying to comparisons between Serena and former generations).
Don't worry, I didn't really think you did think that.

Still, helluva lot of trouble to go to to get up the noses of a few Serena fans. I actually think there is a more eloquent point lurking in here somewhere. Something along the lines that any comparison between players of different generations rests to some extent on assumptions that not everybody is likely to share. Which is why most GOAT discussions soon descend into silly bickering at cross purposes.
stromatolite is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1st, 2013, 06:38 PM   #30
bandabou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 39,185
bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute bandabou has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
For the record, I personally don't see any of the new generation so far as having more potential/talent than Serena, and I would only consider any of them to be greater than her if they exceed her achievements.

My point is (even if it's not the most eloquent point I've ever made) is that, in debates comparing Serena to Graf/Navratilova/Evert, many people (not always Serena fans) are quick to say that, even though Serena has achieved less, her achievements have more weight simply because this era is (so the theory goes) stronger and better due to sport always evolving. And my point is, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, those same people would have to say that if Azarenka/Kvitova/Stephens/Keys/Vekic/whoever got to 10 Slams or something, they would surely have to be considered better than Serena (again, ONLY going by the logic that they're applying to comparisons between Serena and former generations).



But see, if you start making exceptions to the "each era is better than the last one" theory, then the whole argument for Serena being better than Graf/Navratilova/Evert collapses, because it's so easy for people to justifiably argue that the current era isn't stronger than the 1990s Era at all. Saying that the current era is stronger is entirely subjective, and any argument pointing to a general rule that the sport generally always evolves will, again, mean that you would have to accept by that argument's logical limits that Serena would be exceeded by the next generation. Either it's an ironclad rule that every generation exceeds the previous one, or it's not a rule at all, seeing as there would be all kind of subjective ways of saying a certain era is not stronger than the previous one.

(and for the record, even if the last few days I've been doing a good impression of a Steffica Greles Blastfromthepast-ian, I don't believe the current era is weaker than the 1990s. I think it's stronger in some ways and weaker in others, but overall, there isn't any quantifiable way in which this era is overall stronger than the 90s, or that it's harder to dominate the sport to the extent Graf did now than it used to be. And that's why I don't accept the argument that Serena is greater than players that have accomplished more than her, simply because of the era she's in.)
What are you talking about?!

The gap between the Serena and the current gap is waaayyyyyy wider, than the gap between Graf/Court/Nav/Evert vs Serena. And even then nobody says Serena is greater than those four..she has ways to go. She's in the conversation, that's all.

Nobody of the current generation is even in sniffing distance of Hingis for Christ's sake. Let them surpass Hingis, then catching up with Vee/Juju, then Seles.... so please stop with your stupidity already.
bandabou is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios