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Old Jan 12th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #61
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

The main people the British government do have influence with today are mainstream Protestants like the DUP and UUP. That influence has been used for good throughout the peace process. Any other suggestion is a lie. The peace process would have died again and again without the British government, particularly of Tony Blair.

You treat the Protestants in Northern Ireland as a side issue, oh they can stay if they want to...but remember to them they are British and already living in the UK. That is the problem.

Basically you are way out there on the extremes, being not in favour of THE peace process, but A (fictional) peace process. The great mass of the people of Ireland dont agree with you.
A little comparison 4U. Lets say that in the Philippines, an American majority province had been carved out when the US (nearly half a century after they first demanded it) granted their independence in 1946.... with its residents (including the Filipino minority in the province) deemed full American citizens.

Then "lets say 47 years later" (like the span between the 1922 treaty the Brits made Michael Collins give in to, and the renewal of Troubles in 1969 Ireland) the locals reacted to discrimination, and said "Yankee Go Home". And the US sponsored a Peace Process that "kinda satisfied" most (but far from all) on each side.

I'd side with the Filipinos, and say that such a 1946 "partition" had been accepted under duress; thus was no more binding than a ransom deal signed with a kidnapper. And that if the Filipino rebels welcomed the American descendants staying as full citizens of the Philippines if they wished, I'd say my compatriots should accept it.

The Native American situation is different, as if some ppl in England had a pure Saxon bloodline, and others were only descended from the Norman conquerors, with the Saxons having been badly mistreated like our "red man" has been. In that case, compensation would be the only solution, as telling the Normans "go back to France" would be ovakill after 900+ years. (And the Americans of the past 600+ come from far more countries anyhow).

p.s. - I'd give Japan back all of Okinawa immediately, B4U mention that.
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Old Jan 12th, 2013, 12:27 AM   #62
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
A little comparison 4U. Lets say that in the Philippines, an American majority province had been carved out when the US (nearly half a century after they first demanded it) granted their independence in 1946.... with its residents (including the Filipino minority in the province) deemed full American citizens.

Then "lets say 47 years later" (like the span between the 1922 treaty the Brits made Michael Collins give in to, and the renewal of Troubles in 1969 Ireland) the locals reacted to discrimination, and said "Yankee Go Home". And the US sponsored a Peace Process that "kinda satisfied" most (but far from all) on each side.

I'd side with the Filipinos, and say that such a 1946 "partition" had been accepted under duress; thus was no more binding than a ransom deal signed with a kidnapper. And that if the Filipino rebels welcomed the American descendants staying as full citizens of the Philippines if they wished, I'd say my compatriots should accept it.

The Native American situation is different, as if some ppl in England had a pure Saxon bloodline, and others were only descended from the Norman conquerors, with the Saxons having been badly mistreated like our "red man" has been. In that case, compensation would be the only solution, as telling the Normans "go back to France" would be ovakill after 900+ years. (And the Americans of the past 600+ come from far more countries anyhow).

p.s. - I'd give Japan back all of Okinawa immediately, B4U mention that.
All of this doesn't ultimately matter...imagine there is a united Ireland, Brutish forces have left, renounced any claim, as you want them to do. The great problem will still remain, how on earth to reconcile the Protestants to it? To them that land is their's, they have been there countless generations. You know they have been there as long as most Americans have. Are you still a settler?

Their place in this new united Ireland is the heart of it, concentrating on the mainlabd's role now is a gigantic waste of time. The Protestants would never accept a United Ireland on the terms you sketch out. No chance.
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Old Jan 12th, 2013, 11:44 AM   #63
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Re: Belfast riots

I believe Ulster's biggest problem is no longer Protestants vs Catholics but rather internal relations between Protestants themselves.
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Old Jan 12th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #64
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

All of this doesn't ultimately matter...imagine there is a united Ireland, Brutish forces have left, renounced any claim, as you want them to do. The great problem will still remain, how on earth to reconcile the Protestants to it? To them that land is their's, they have been there countless generations. You know they have been there as long as most Americans have. Are you still a settler?

Their place in this new united Ireland is the heart of it, concentrating on the mainlabd's role now is a gigantic waste of time. The Protestants would never accept a United Ireland on the terms you sketch out. No chance.
Sure I am, like everyone else whose forebears came to the US since like 1500 (except those whose ancestors were "settled here" in bondage). And I accept the sovereignty of the place my forebears migrated to; as should the "Orangemen" in Ireland!

And whilst the original Americans are a small minority here now, the Irish are still a majority in their country. Your question is silly, as if I were part of some militia group that claimed not 2B subject to the "social contract" of the USA.

BTW, the morons who insist on flying the Union Jack on Belfast City Hall are as insensitive as the ppl in the Southern US who insist on flying the Confederate flag ova state Capitols, etc.
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Old Jan 13th, 2013, 10:25 AM   #65
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Sure I am, like everyone else whose forebears came to the US since like 1500 (except those whose ancestors were "settled here" in bondage). And I accept the sovereignty of the place my forebears migrated to; as should the "Orangemen" in Ireland!

And whilst the original Americans are a small minority here now, the Irish are still a majority in their country. Your question is silly, as if I were part of some militia group that claimed not 2B subject to the "social contract" of the USA.

BTW, the morons who insist on flying the Union Jack on Belfast City Hall are as insensitive as the ppl in the Southern US who insist on flying the Confederate flag ova state Capitols, etc.
There is a peace process already in place. That is the only game in town. Even Sinn Fein recognise that for a United Ireland to ever succeed they will have to take the Protestants/Unionists with them, or the United Ireland will collapse in civil war and disorder.
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Old Mar 9th, 2013, 12:27 AM   #66
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NEW Belfast riots

Five police injured in rioting in Northern Ireland

BELFAST, Mar. 8, 2013 (Reuters)

Five police officers were injured on Friday night in the worst rioting for weeks in Belfast in a dispute over the flying of Irish flags near a predominantly pro-British area, officials said. A crowd of more than 100 youths threw bricks and bottles at police officers in Newtownabbey on the northern outskirts of Belfast and at least one car was set on fire, a police spokesman said.

Security sources said the trouble started when pro-British youths tried to remove Irish tricolor flags on lampposts and were challenged by police. A 1998 peace deal largely ended more than three decades of tit-for-tat killings in the British-controlled province between mainly Catholic Irish nationalists seeking union with Ireland and predominantly Protestant loyalists who want to remain part of the United Kingdom.

But Belfast remains a city divided along religious lines and British flags are flown from lampposts in some Protestant areas, while some Catholic streets are lined with Irish tricolors. Loyalists held near-nightly riots in December and January after a vote by Irish nationalist councilors to end a century-old tradition of flying the British union flag every day over Belfast City Hall.

There have been a series of bomb alerts in Newtownabbey in recent days. A hoax bomb was found outside a Catholic Church on Thursday night and earlier in the week what police described as two "crude but viable devices" were found at a local business.
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Old Mar 9th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #67
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Re: NEW Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Five police injured in rioting in Northern Ireland

BELFAST, Mar. 8, 2013 (Reuters)

Five police officers were injured on Friday night in the worst rioting for weeks in Belfast in a dispute over the flying of Irish flags near a predominantly pro-British area, officials said. A crowd of more than 100 youths threw bricks and bottles at police officers in Newtownabbey on the northern outskirts of Belfast and at least one car was set on fire, a police spokesman said.

Security sources said the trouble started when pro-British youths tried to remove Irish tricolor flags on lampposts and were challenged by police. A 1998 peace deal largely ended more than three decades of tit-for-tat killings in the British-controlled province between mainly Catholic Irish nationalists seeking union with Ireland and predominantly Protestant loyalists who want to remain part of the United Kingdom.

But Belfast remains a city divided along religious lines and British flags are flown from lampposts in some Protestant areas, while some Catholic streets are lined with Irish tricolors. Loyalists held near-nightly riots in December and January after a vote by Irish nationalist councilors to end a century-old tradition of flying the British union flag every day over Belfast City Hall.

There have been a series of bomb alerts in Newtownabbey in recent days. A hoax bomb was found outside a Catholic Church on Thursday night and earlier in the week what police described as two "crude but viable devices" were found at a local business.
More evidence that what Northern Ireland needs are less symbols, less murals, less commemorations, less flags. This can only apply across the board there, British flag or Irish flag, Protestant terrorist symbols or Catholic terrorist symbols.

This problem will exist whether it remains part of the UK or a united Ireland. Good luck anyone wanting to solve it.
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Old Mar 9th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #68
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Re: Belfast riots

Will this ever end? The unrest and unease has been so prolonged. I'm sure St. Patrick's Day will lead to more trouble. An Australian friend of mine will be up north on the 15th and 16th. I want to tell her not to go, not out of fear of something happening but just because it probably won't be the most pleasant time to go there. I naively went up on the 11th of July once and it was such an uncomfortable place to be.

Maybe I've mentioned it in this thread already but after driving through towns with paramilitary flags flying side by side with union jacks and basically feeling very conspicuous in my car with it's lovely Irish registration plate we parked on a quiet street in Belfast to get a quick bite to eat before heading home before dark. We turned to see a huge tower of crates with the Irish flag on top of it. My friend who was feeling more and more unnerved as the day went on was like, "Aww, well that's nice. At least some people are more open minded." I was like, "Eh, that tower of crates is a bonfire. They're going to burn our flag after dark." We promptly left Belfast and didn't stop to eat until we were south of the border!!!
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Old Mar 9th, 2013, 07:49 PM   #69
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by kwilliams View Post

Will this ever end? The unrest and unease has been so prolonged....
A solution (not the only possible answer, just one) is making all of Ireland a confederation of regions. Not 32 separate counties in this comparitively low population island nation, but maybe 5 regions, like ancient Ireland was divided into. In terms of the currency, I presume that both the British pound and the Euro are used island-wide anyhow.

Foreign policy and things like Federal courts could be in Dublin, but most day-to-day affairs could be administered regionally. Note that ancient Ulster was much bigger than today's (and would have a Catholic majority inside those provincial borders) removing one thing to fight about: http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...reland_map.jpg

As one who opposes theocracy anyhow, IC it as a useful challenge to the Catholics not to try to impose religiously motivated rules on anyone (as in the tragic recent case where Indian woman died in childbirth because she couldn't get an abortion that was essential; and was in fact legal in such circumstances, per the Irish Supreme Court).

Other historical maps have 6 regions or more, with current Ulster divided between @ least 2 of them: http://www.ulsterheritage.com/maps/map650.gif and http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/i...al-map1014.gif.

Point is that there are various routes to gradually re-unite Ireland, where British sovereignty "withers on the vine", as in most of the Commonwealth; though I'd much prefer that was handed off immediately, or that shared sovereignty ova NI between Dublin and London for an "X years" transition period were as a backup plan.

==========================================
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 09:55 AM   #70
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
A solution (not the only possible answer, just one) is making all of Ireland a confederation of regions. Not 32 separate counties in this comparitively low population island nation, but maybe 5 regions, like ancient Ireland was divided into. In terms of the currency, I presume that both the British pound and the Euro are used island-wide anyhow.

Foreign policy and things like Federal courts could be in Dublin, but most day-to-day affairs could be administered regionally. Note that ancient Ulster was much bigger than today's (and would have a Catholic majority inside those provincial borders) removing one thing to fight about: http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...reland_map.jpg

As one who opposes theocracy anyhow, IC it as a useful challenge to the Catholics not to try to impose religiously motivated rules on anyone (as in the tragic recent case where Indian woman died in childbirth because she couldn't get an abortion that was essential; and was in fact legal in such circumstances, per the Irish Supreme Court).

Other historical maps have 6 regions or more, with current Ulster divided between @ least 2 of them: http://www.ulsterheritage.com/maps/map650.gif and http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/i...al-map1014.gif.

Point is that there are various routes to gradually re-unite Ireland, where British sovereignty "withers on the vine", as in most of the Commonwealth; though I'd much prefer that was handed off immediately, or that shared sovereignty ova NI between Dublin and London for an "X years" transition period were as a backup plan.

==========================================
In theory, I would support any plan which would once and for all disentangle Mainland Britain from Ireland. Oddly enough we actually agree on that, albeit from the opposite reasons.

But how to pull of such a disentanglement without raising the violent fury of the Loyalists in Northern Ireland is the great problem with any plan beyond the current peace process.
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 10:18 AM   #71
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by kwilliams View Post
Will this ever end?
The answer is simple, no, it won't It's about time the Real IRA or whatever they're calling themselves now threw some really big one. Imagine a series of bomb blasts on the day of William's crowning
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 10:35 AM   #72
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
The answer is simple, no, it won't It's about time the Real IRA or whatever they're calling themselves now threw some really big one. Imagine a series of bomb blasts on the day of William's crowning
Their latest name is the New IRA.

As I'm sure you realise such a campaign would be terribly destructive for everyone and achieve nothing positive for anyone.
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #73
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Re: Belfast riots

Those IRA guys surely would disagree with you
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #74
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

In theory, I would support any plan which would once and for all disentangle Mainland Britain from Ireland. Oddly enough we actually agree on that, albeit from the opposite reasons.

But how to pull of such a disentanglement without raising the violent fury of the Loyalists in Northern Ireland is the great problem with any plan beyond the current peace process.
Unfortunately, you're buying into an albeit violent version of the so-called heckler's veto (a term used when campus speakers are shouted down). Whilst you've never said in our various tilts on this matter that Britain needs sovereignty ova NI, you still say that it has 2B maintained so the Orangemen don't play the fool.

We agree on things like non-sectarian education, so the kids realize that those on the "other side" aren't that different than themselves. And I've always said the Catholic Church should stay out of politics; with this being a "price" of reunification maybe being enough incentive for that.

I'd have an Irish Constitution that guarantees various rights the Vatican might not be too happy with. IMO, the "Prods" are fully welcome to stay, and hopefully some will become active in the only major party really fighting the Irish version of "economic Thatcherism".... Sinn Fein.
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Old Mar 10th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #75
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Re: Belfast riots

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Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
Unfortunately, you're buying into an albeit violent version of the so-called heckler's veto (a term used when campus speakers are shouted down). Whilst you've never said in our various tilts on this matter that Britain needs sovereignty ova NI, you still say that it has 2B maintained so the Orangemen don't play the fool.

We agree on things like non-sectarian education, so the kids realize that those on the "other side" aren't that different than themselves. And I've always said the Catholic Church should stay out of politics; with this being a "price" of reunification maybe being enough incentive for that.

I'd have an Irish Constitution that guarantees various rights the Vatican might not be too happy with. IMO, the "Prods" are fully welcome to stay, and hopefully some will become active in the only major party really fighting the Irish version of "economic Thatcherism".... Sinn Fein.
Essentially my position today has evolved into a desire to be rid of Northern Ireland in as peaceful a way as possible. Mainland Britain gets nothing out of it, and has largely progressed socially in a way Northern Ireland refuses to.

Socially Northern Ireland becoming part of a United Ireland wouldn't be that much problem...both are far more socially conservative on issues like abortion and religion than mainland Britain is.

But it's not going to happen in the forseeable future, and for both you and I, that is a cause of regret.
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