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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #76
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Dana1982 View Post
I know my response would bother many people here, but - do you realize that for the last 11 years they are firing missiles at Israeli homes, not only with people's belonging in them, but with PEOPLE in them?????

Again, I don't agree with the PM's actions, but how can anyone ignore the other side??? How can you only see ONE point of view and completely disgregard the other???
You response did not bother me at all.

I just don't agree with it.

This an asymmetric conflict.
One side has the most powerful army in the region, with state of the art weapons, including an air force that can pretty much anything.
The other side, well is pretty much a civilian force, under occupation, where movement of people is controlled by occupier.
As occupier, Israel has certain obligations toward the Palestinians in occupied territories under Under resolution


Because of the above, I think you realize Israel is increasingly depleting the moral superiority it once enjoyed.
A glaring example was the last vote at the UN when the PA submitted the statehood resolution to the UN general assembly.
In the Americas, only USA and Canada opposed the resolution. I believe there was only one country in Europe that oppose the resolution
The western Europeans countries, traditionally supporter of Israel, France, Italy, Germany,Spain Great Britain all abstained.
The rest of the nation that oppose the resolution were pacific island nations. A total of 9 nations voted against the resolutions, over 100 voted for it.

Poster NAT made the point that this situation is unsustainable, time is not on Israel side. And I agree with him.

I do agree with you that there are also Israeli victims, but the asymmetry, illustrated by the optic of an overwhelming force with fighter jets, helicopters, ground force troop army in full war formation, and the physical devastation on the ground caused by bombing does not work in Israel favor.


The roles in David vs Goliath have been reversed., where Israel has switched from David to Goliath, and Palestinian have become David.
In fact, in perverted , unintended consequences way, Israel's military success is somewhat putting it at a disadvantage in the eyes of international opinion.

Israel is seen as a neighborhood bully. And this is causing an international public relation nightmare.
This does not mean people have suddenly embraced Hamas, the terrorist organization.
What is teams if they feel someone should protect the innocent Palestinian children and women and they see on TV dead in rubble of their house or being carried in the streets. These are powerful images.


That is it for me. Thanks for the exchange.
Back to the topic before we derail this thread any further.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 07:33 AM   #77
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

I don't think Israel deserves to be where it is but that is hardly Israel's fault but more America's
It's probably because Israel has been known to treat the original owners of the land with very little respect that Venezuela said no, but that isn't Patiuk's faul
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 07:48 AM   #78
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by chingching View Post
I don't think Israel deserves to be where it is but that is hardly Israel's fault but more America's
It's probably because Israel has been known to treat the original owners of the land with very little respect that Venezuela said no, but that isn't Patiuk's faul
NO clear reason has been given for the refusal, but according to this article Israeli have received travel visa to Venezuela.

No we can't find a reason why thsi 16-years old player is refused visa


Quote:


"What astounds me is that I know of many Israelis who receive visas to Venezuela through a third country but because this is an official sports delegation they're making it difficult for us. Unfortunately, the ITF is not putting enough pressure on them because if you sanction an international tournament in Venezuela, the host country should make sure that every tennis player can compete there without prejudice".
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #79
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Thank ranfurly for confirming, I always knew my Afrikanner friend was around would confirm.


PS> I think there should never have been an exception
BTW, what is the correct spelling of Afrikanner or Afrikaaner
Neither, Afrikaner is the correct way haha,

Most people get used to our words having double vowels, so it's a common mistake to make. I make it while typing.

No, it shouldn't have been an exception either, it crippled alot of good black players, and townships in general to get their people into playing rugby but also continued separatism throughout other sports, which was stupid because we were all banned from playing internationally

Not so much now, you will see it more in the crowds with white Saffa's singing only "Die Stem", and refusing to stand for the rest of the anthem, generally these people are from the farm lands in the Western/Northern Cape, Boerland.

We were allowed to play back internationally in 91/92.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #80
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiceboy View Post
And regarding Chávez, yeah, he may act as a dictator in his manner but he got there winning democratic ellections. And you know why? Because in the 80s Venezuela was a very rich country due to oil but in the end all the wealthy was shared by a very small part of the country, around the 5% of population while poverty was spread all over the country. Now virtually everybody as something to eat in their tables and Venezuela has shared all that wealth with all its citizens. Do you think all those millions of people are retards who voted for him are just puppets who just agree with all th officialist press while having nothing? No, they vote for him because they have seen how education has reached everyone and nobody is starving in the streets.Yes, that's socialism, something Americans dread but it has worked there for all those million of people who had NOTHING and now has the basics and they are grateful for this and adore Chávez for that. Of course, wealthy people and those American vultures who expoiled their oil for years are so beligarent against him.
I don't know if you are venezuelan or not bur the things are way more complicated than that. He's not winning for those reasons.
This is a very long subject but of couse it's not what the nedia is.
Either way I think it's stupid that they didnt give to visa to her bur it makes sense because of my country's stupid politics...we are by the way the first country to recognize palestine...
I'm against the goverment and I'm venezuelan
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 11:14 AM   #81
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Yes, they do bulldoze the houses, sometime with owner belongings still in them and the family do not want to heed the eviction notice and remove their belongings.
We have seen many reports of on these incidents



I was responding to another post, and wanted to be honest about this.


For what it is worth, for the topic at hand, I do think if a federation accept to be part of ITF and is awarded the right to organize a tournament, they must allow all athletes from member federation countries to participate, i.e. they must give them entry visa
This, provided the athlete has made reasonable and good faith effort to provide documents required by the host country to obtain a visa.

Under extraordinary circumstances, the country may have the right to deny a visa.
Tennis federations have no power to give visas
And how do you know these werent't extraordinary circumstance (and who are you to say when a country can or can't deny a visa??). The visa issue is 100% out of a tournament's control. Maybe the burden should be on the ITF to avoid granting tournament licenses to "trouble" countries rather than on tournaments to ensure visas for players, which is impossible.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #82
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by croat123 View Post
Tennis federations have no power to give visas
That is correct.
I meant to say, the national tennis federation, when they agreed to the contract with ITF, should make sure that their country does not exclude ITF member countries players

Quote:
Originally Posted by croat123 View Post
And how do you know these werent't extraordinary circumstance (and who are you to say when a country can or can't deny a visa??)..
I don't know. I read the article in the link, there is much in the way of explaining why the visa was refused.
The interesting is the same article stated the Israelis routinely get visa thru a third country to travel to Venezuela, so there must be something particular with this case.

The article also said, the player and her coach started the process of securing the visa 3 months before the tennis event

Quote:
Originally Posted by croat123 View Post
The visa issue is 100% out of a tournament's control. Maybe the burden should be on the ITF to avoid granting tournament licenses to "trouble" countries rather than on tournaments to ensure visas for players, which is impossible.
I agree, but I think they do not engage in direct negotiations with the country government, but with the national federation.
The national federation is in better position to know what their country law allows or does not allow.
Based on that they make judgement whether they can meet the contractual obligations set by the ITF
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #83
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by ranfurly View Post
Neither, Afrikaner is the correct way haha,

Most people get used to our words having double vowels, so it's a common mistake to make. I make it while typing..
You are correct, I have often see the double vowel

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranfurly View Post
No, it shouldn't have been an exception either, it crippled alot of good black players, and townships in general to get their people into playing rugby but also continued separatism throughout other sports, which was stupid because we were all banned from playing internationally

Not so much now, you will see it more in the crowds with white Saffa's singing only "Die Stem", and refusing to stand for the rest of the anthem, generally these people are from the farm lands in the Western/Northern Cape, Boerland.

We were allowed to play back internationally in 91/92.
I can't recall the exact match, but it was so emotional and heartwarming to see Mandela during an international match( I don't the other nation), draped in the color of the national multi-racial team, and with all members showing so much deference and respect to him.


Am I correct to say, some those players seem truly and psychologically liberated now that they have the support of the whole SA population?
I personally do not care for Rugby, but the event human dimension seems quite therapeutic for the new country.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 06:30 PM   #84
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by croat123 View Post
Maybe the burden should be on the ITF to avoid granting tournament licenses to "trouble" countries rather than on tournaments to ensure visas for players, which is impossible.
eeeer and what is exactly a "trouble" country? Some may think Venezuela is a "trouble" country and many other would say the same for Israel, Nigeria when women get stoned, the Gulf countries or even China with its lousy record for human rights.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #85
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by NAT View Post
You are right, the idea of this thread should be politics and sports, and I also don't want to make it a Palestine/Israel thread. However... the Palestinian terrorists who fire at civillians are despicable, but if you really believe the Israeli military avoids Palestinian civilian casualties then you are naive. There is a reason that in every skirmish the civilian death toll ration Palestinian to Israeli is at LEAST 10 to one, often much higher. The mistake that the Israeli government makes (along with Hamas, and many other world governments) is acting as though the lives of their citizens and military are worth more than the lives of the other side. A life is a life. If a terrorist fires from a school, hospital etc., it is NOT justified to blow the building up, knowing ther will be civillian deaths, and then blame the terrorists. You put your military on the ground, look the terrorist in the eye, and kill him. Of course the military will face higher casualties, and governments do no have the political guts to do this.
If Israel really wants the higher ground they should immediately stop illegal settlements and grant autonomy to the West Bank. Put the pressure on Hamas. If they see that the West Bank gains autonomy through being peaceful, they will have to adjust, or suffer the consequences.
Back to politics and sport. If Israel fails to dot hese things, perhaps it is time to boycott Israeli athletes (among other things). Many innocent South Africans did suffer under the same circumstances, but the inernational pressure did play a key in the fall of Apartheid. After so many other failed attempts, maybe this is another approach.
That's the heart of the matter.

'Lebensraum' (ironic, isn't it)

And the problem is, a significant portion of Israelis actually endorse that policy..
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #86
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

or perhaps Venezuela condemns use of white phosphorus on civilian targets
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 11:28 PM   #87
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Jarl_02 View Post
I don't know if you are venezuelan or not bur the things are way more complicated than that. He's not winning for those reasons.
This is a very long subject but of couse it's not what the nedia is.
Either way I think it's stupid that they didnt give to visa to her bur it makes sense because of my country's stupid politics...we are by the way the first country to recognize palestine...
I'm against the goverment and I'm venezuelan
First country to recognise Palestine??? Ehh you'd wanna check your facts on that one love. Only North America and Western Europeans don't regcognise Palestine almost ALL other countries in the world do. You aren't special in that regard.

I'd also love to hear your reasons as to why Chavez is winning and all the other leftists on the continent for that matter??
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #88
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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First country to recognise Palestine??? Ehh you'd wanna check your facts on that one love. Only North America and Western Europeans don't regcognise Palestine almost ALL other countries in the world do. You aren't special in that regard.

I'd also love to hear your reasons as to why Chavez is winning and all the other leftists on the continent for that matter??
Lol ok.
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Old Jan 7th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #89
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Why doesn't the yenta get a diplomatic passport (like Serbian tennis players)?

That's what Ana, JJ, Djokovic & co did when they got tired of Visa troubles in Western countries that discriminate against Serbia. Not that this automatically solves all travel problems but at least it wouldn't hurt to have an extra option that might come in handy.
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Old Jan 7th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #90
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Maybe because Chavez is sick they don't know what the hell they are doing. [/facetious]

Diplomatic passports are not the solution for sports people. Overkill!
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