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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #61
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Do tennis players get tourist visas, they receive prize money surely there must be another short term type visa for people on business?
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #62
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Petkorazzi View Post
Maybe because she needs a touristic visa for 2 weeks at most in Venezuela compared to you needing a working visa in Switzerland
Tourist visa? You're kidding, right?

Most countries have what is called a professional athlete visa. In the U.S. it's a P-1 visa
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #63
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
That conclusion can be drawn, but that is not what I meant,

The sanction will go against the tennis organization of the said country, not the national government.
I believe The ITF does not negotiate directly with the the government of the country, the contract negotiation happens between the tennis federation of the country and the ITF.

It is up to the tennis Federation of the country to negotiate and/or clear the term of the contracts regarding visa for tennis players.
If the the tennis federation comes back to the ITF and say they agree with the term of the contracts, then they should be responsible for any punishment or fine spelled out in the contract in case of non-compliance.


As I said, there would extraordinary circumstances that can be litigated as discretionary matters.
That's still saying that the Tennis Federation would have control over a government agency and that's not going to happen not here or anywhere else.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #64
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

This thread is just proof that everything in life is political. Thanks spiceboy for your post about Venezuela.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 04:19 AM   #65
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
One the most chilling thing is how many Israeli stand by, and watch their government bulldoze houses owned by Palestinians, evict the Palestinians , and bring in Jews to take over the land.

So while it true that many Jews disagree with their government treatment of Palestinians, there are not enough of them outraged at what their government does in their name.

I'm an Israeli, I'm not voting for Netanyahu in the upcoming elections and there are many things he does that I don't agree with. But I am having a hard time seeing posts such as this one (and mostly the awfule post with the banner comparing us to the nazis, as my grandmother is a hollacost survivor).

You may also say that not all palestenians agree with the way of terror, but there are not enough of them outraged at what their government (Hamas) does in their name.

Specifics? Bombing towards houses and schools in Israel for over 11 years now, and firing these missiles from hospitals and schools in Gaza (so that when Israel bombs their pile of missiles, it will also kill some kids along the way, and they can say "look how awfule israelis are, killing children". Cuz of course ignorant people wouldn't stop and realize the blame is on the idiots who fire missiles from a building with 90 kids in it.

This thread was meant to raise a completely different issue - the mix between politics and sports, which is simply unfair and unjustified. I did not intend to post this here, but if people turn this in to a thread against Israel, they should at least be more accurate, know their facts and remember that Israel is protecting itself, same as many other countries in the world (including the USA!!) are doing.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 04:38 AM   #66
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by Dana1982 View Post
I'm an Israeli, I'm not voting for Netanyahu in the upcoming elections and there are many things he does that I don't agree with. But I am having a hard time seeing posts such as this one (and mostly the awfule post with the banner comparing us to the nazis, as my grandmother is a hollacost survivor).

You may also say that not all palestenians agree with the way of terror, but there are not enough of them outraged at what their government (Hamas) does in their name.

Specifics? Bombing towards houses and schools in Israel for over 11 years now, and firing these missiles from hospitals and schools in Gaza (so that when Israel bombs their pile of missiles, it will also kill some kids along the way, and they can say "look how awfule israelis are, killing children". Cuz of course ignorant people wouldn't stop and realize the blame is on the idiots who fire missiles from a building with 90 kids in it.

This thread was meant to raise a completely different issue - the mix between politics and sports, which is simply unfair and unjustified. I did not intend to post this here, but if people turn this in to a thread against Israel, they should at least be more accurate, know their facts and remember that Israel is protecting itself, same as many other countries in the world (including the USA!!) are doing.
I appreciate your response, but I still don't know what you are taking issue with in the facts of my post.
The bulldozing of Palestinian houses or the Israelis who disagree with but not doing anything about it?

Or are you suggesting bulldozing houses and evicting Palestinians owners from them, is protecting Israeli children?

You are saying I don't know all the facts, what else is missing about bulldozing Palestinian houses, evicting the owners from the land or farm?
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 04:47 AM   #67
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I appreciate your response, but I still don't know what you are taking issue with in the facts of my post.
The bulldozing of Palestinian houses or the Israelis who disagree with but not doing anything about it?

Or are you suggesting bulldozing houses and evicting Palestinians owners from them, is protecting Israeli children?

You are saying I don't know all the facts, what else is missing about bulldozing Palestinian houses, evicting the owners from the land or farm?
As I said, there are things our PM does I don't agree with, and the latest building approvals included.

By the way, for all I know, it isn't about taking down their homes to build new ones for Israelis, but building on lands that are "on dispute" but I might be wrong there, I have to be honest in that regard.

It does bother me that out of all the things I wrote and said, you're back to their houses. The decisions Netanyahu made regarding building plans in these areas came after the war last month. If anyone feels it's ok for Israeli kids to live in fear and grow up with the sounds of alarms and missiles falling, I ask that they will move there for just one week. I lived like that for one week only (when they fired towards Tel Aviv) and I wish that for nobody, including the palestinans themself.

What I meant about having all the facts, is that it's not fair to take a side and completely ignore the other and take that side's word as the only one that matters. Palestinians are no saints. While they fire TOWARDS kids, Israelis try to AVOID firing at theirs. I'm sad to see the world believes one-sided stories, and people go on tennis forums and spread that word.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 04:55 AM   #68
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by mykarma View Post
That's still saying that the Tennis Federation would have control over a government agency and that's not going to happen not here or anywhere else.
NO, the USTA or USOC do not have control over our government, but when they negotiate contract with ITF or IOC and agree with the term of the contract, they have tacitly agreed that the terms are enforceable within their country, the USA.

I would think one of the terms of contract would be to allow all athletes from all countries member of ITF or IOC to participate.


Case and point was South Africa under apartheid.
Except for rugby( someone can confirm this), I believe all South Africa federations were banned from most international sporting events, because their respective federations could not abide by non-discrimination clause of non-whites.
So the international federations are not directly dealing the country's governments, but with their federations.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 05:16 AM   #69
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

You are right, the idea of this thread should be politics and sports, and I also don't want to make it a Palestine/Israel thread. However... the Palestinian terrorists who fire at civillians are despicable, but if you really believe the Israeli military avoids Palestinian civilian casualties then you are naive. There is a reason that in every skirmish the civilian death toll ration Palestinian to Israeli is at LEAST 10 to one, often much higher. The mistake that the Israeli government makes (along with Hamas, and many other world governments) is acting as though the lives of their citizens and military are worth more than the lives of the other side. A life is a life. If a terrorist fires from a school, hospital etc., it is NOT justified to blow the building up, knowing ther will be civillian deaths, and then blame the terrorists. You put your military on the ground, look the terrorist in the eye, and kill him. Of course the military will face higher casualties, and governments do no have the political guts to do this.
If Israel really wants the higher ground they should immediately stop illegal settlements and grant autonomy to the West Bank. Put the pressure on Hamas. If they see that the West Bank gains autonomy through being peaceful, they will have to adjust, or suffer the consequences.
Back to politics and sport. If Israel fails to dot hese things, perhaps it is time to boycott Israeli athletes (among other things). Many innocent South Africans did suffer under the same circumstances, but the inernational pressure did play a key in the fall of Apartheid. After so many other failed attempts, maybe this is another approach.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 05:21 AM   #70
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana1982 View Post
As I said, there are things our PM does I don't agree with, and the latest building approvals included.

By the way, for all I know, it isn't about taking down their homes to build new ones for Israelis, but building on lands that are "on dispute" but I might be wrong there, I have to be honest in that regard.
Yes, they do bulldoze the houses, sometime with owner belongings still in them and the family do not want to heed the eviction notice and remove their belongings.
We have seen many reports of on these incidents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana1982 View Post
It does bother me that out of all the things I wrote and said, you're back to their houses. The decisions Netanyahu made regarding building plans in these areas came after the war last month. If anyone feels it's ok for Israeli kids to live in fear and grow up with the sounds of alarms and missiles falling, I ask that they will move there for just one week. I lived like that for one week only (when they fired towards Tel Aviv) and I wish that for nobody, including the palestinans themself.

What I meant about having all the facts, is that it's not fair to take a side and completely ignore the other and take that side's word as the only one that matters. Palestinians are no saints. While they fire TOWARDS kids, Israelis try to AVOID firing at theirs. I'm sad to see the world believes one-sided stories, and people go on tennis forums and spread that word.
I was responding to another post, and wanted to be honest about this.


For what it is worth, for the topic at hand, I do think if a federation accept to be part of ITF and is awarded the right to organize a tournament, they must allow all athletes from member federation countries to participate, i.e. they must give them entry visa
This, provided the athlete has made reasonable and good faith effort to provide documents required by the host country to obtain a visa.

Under extraordinary circumstances, the country may have the right to deny a visa.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 05:32 AM   #71
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAT View Post
You are right, the idea of this thread should be politics and sports, and I also don't want to make it a Palestine/Israel thread. However... the Palestinian terrorists who fire at civillians are despicable, but if you really believe the Israeli military avoids Palestinian civilian casualties then you are naive. There is a reason that in every skirmish the civilian death toll ration Palestinian to Israeli is at LEAST 10 to one, often much higher. The mistake that the Israeli government makes (along with Hamas, and many other world governments) is acting as though the lives of their citizens and military are worth more than the lives of the other side. A life is a life. If a terrorist fires from a school, hospital etc., it is NOT justified to blow the building up, knowing ther will be civillian deaths, and then blame the terrorists. You put your military on the ground, look the terrorist in the eye, and kill him. Of course the military will face higher casualties, and governments do no have the political guts to do this.
If Israel really wants the higher ground they should immediately stop illegal settlements and grant autonomy to the West Bank. Put the pressure on Hamas. If they see that the West Bank gains autonomy through being peaceful, they will have to adjust, or suffer the consequences.
Back to politics and sport. If Israel fails to dot hese things, perhaps it is time to boycott Israeli athletes (among other things). Many innocent South Africans did suffer under the same circumstances, but the inernational pressure did play a key in the fall of Apartheid. After so many other failed attempts, maybe this is another approach.
Two main issues I have to pay attention to:

1. I'm not naive. Of course there are casualties. What war doesn't? Look at Iraq and Afganistan. But the IDF (Israeli amry) is not FIRING AT children, but at the terrorists locations. They are hiding in schools, hospitals and 5-yr-old-girls'-room! They use the kids as a shield!
By the way - CNN didn't bother talking about this (as they're pro-palestenians and avoid Israeli side) but in the last war, the Israeli air forces dropped papers on Gaza, warning the citizens to hide as there are attacks coming on terrorists' centers. When the palestinians fired a missile at my friend's house in Rishon Lezion, they didn't give any warning. They wanted to kill. And they were aiming for children. Anyone who doesn't see it IS naive.

2. If the Israeli government wouldn't think Israeli citizens' lives are the most important, we would be in a big problem, just like those people in Gaza, as Hamas doesn't think the population in Gaza matters. They don't know how many die - the opposite. They wish for many causalties so they can say "look at those devil israelis". Need I remind of the fake movie a few years ago where a girl was crying at her parents bodies in the beach after Israeli's attack? It was proven fake. They are doing a great job making Israel look like the devil. You all buy it. But it's far from the truth. People who see only CNN and Al Jazira are only exposed to one side of the story.

And again - I am not a fan on Netnyahu. I didn't vote for him last time, and I will not vote for him this time. I do believe piece can be achieved, and I do believe they have the right to their own country. But as long as they choose to fire missiles, bomb buses and kill babies in their sleep (2 events in the last few months) - it can not happen. Just don't go on saying Israel is bad and holds all the blame. There are two sides to every story. Learn both sides before you judge like that.

Last edited by Dana1982 : Jan 6th, 2013 at 05:37 AM. Reason: typo
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 05:35 AM   #72
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Yes, they do bulldoze the houses, sometime with owner belongings still in them and the family do not want to heed the eviction notice and remove their belongings.
We have seen many reports of on these incidents


I know my response would bother many people here, but - do you realize that for the last 11 years they are firing missiles at Israeli homes, not only with people's belonging in them, but with PEOPLE in them?????

Again, I don't agree with the PM's actions, but how can anyone ignore the other side??? How can you only see ONE point of view and completely disgregard the other???
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #73
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

Politics strike again.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 06:08 AM   #74
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Case and point was South Africa under apartheid.
Except for rugby( someone can confirm this), I believe all South Africa federations were banned from most international sporting events, because their respective federations could not abide by non-discrimination clause of non-whites.
So the international federations are not directly dealing the country's governments, but with their federations.
Pretty much, The Gleneagles Agreement. This was approved by the commonwealth, presidents and prime ministers agreed to it for their support against apartheid, to discourage contact and competition between their sportsmen and sporting organisations, teams and individuals from RSA.

Rugby being the predominant sport, due to the popularity of the game, popularity in the commonwealth, and RSA's success.
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Old Jan 6th, 2013, 06:20 AM   #75
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Re: Venezuela denies visa for 16.5 Israeli Valeria Patiuk to play junior G1 tournamen

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Pretty much, The Gleneagles Agreement. This was approved by the commonwealth, presidents and prime ministers agreed to it for their support against apartheid, to discourage contact and competition between their sportsmen and sporting organisations, teams and individuals from RSA.

Rugby being the predominant sport, due to the popularity of the game, popularity in the commonwealth, and RSA's success.
Thank ranfurly for confirming, I always knew my Afrikanner friend was around would confirm.


PS> I think there should never have been an exception
BTW, what is the correct spelling of Afrikanner or Afrikaaner
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