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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #196
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
What we should really be talking about is the social and economic conditions that led to this rape and other rapes. I think Ashi(?) mentioned that these men were from the slums and had little going for them. They were unlikely to get wives or regular jobs. These are the issues we should be talking about rather than something like "the culture that produces this violence..." Because there is nothing wrong with Indian culture. There is something wrong with Indian society right now due to the social and economic conditions that are in the country right now. So instead of talking about this, if westerners are saying that somehow it's Indian culture that's allowed this to happen then it's pretty insulting.

But of course, people don't want to talk about root causes, it's all about sensationalist politics when something like this happens and then it's forgotten.

I also find it insulting that this is compared to something like gun shootings in US. Because this is a result of deep social and economic problems not a result of 50% of the citizens deciding "Hey I want to have a gun". It's not easily solved.

Look, this is not exclusive to people coming from the slums.
There have been cases of politicians and law enforcement officials, who are supposed to protect women against crime of rape, who have themselves committed rape and gotten away with it; some of the victims were under age girls.


So I object trying to blaming this on the slum.


The bottom line is, the crime of rape needs to be taken seriously, by government officials, law enforcement, the judicial system.
The demonstrators are demanding that.


Although some in this thread have dismissed the demonstration as en exercise in emotional masturbation, they have already accomplished a lot by awakening ordinary Indians to the horror of this crime and sent stern warning to politicians an law enforcement that Indian people can no longer tolerate the status quo.

This is an organic ,spontaneous movement of young men and women. Hope they keep the presume on.
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 04:58 AM   #197
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Re: Ohio Rape: High School Students Joke About Rape In Leaked Video !

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Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
For all the attention the current situation in India is getting, people forget that the West is nowhere near the ideal. Thousands of these kinds of cases happen every year and receive no attention whatsoever.
exactly......with all the attention the latest incident in india is getting, people like tennisbum and jr want people to believe that the situation serves as a proof of intolerance in india and how far the country still needs to go......it is as if they are alien to rapes in their own country......

what makes me say all this is that they are in no position to say that when far more worse assaults are happening on all sexes in their own country.......

blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......

tennisbum and jr turned a blind eye to it and kept pointing at the incident and the outrage in india......jr went as far as taking one or two disastrous incidents, generalized them and asked me if that's what i meant by culture......

their posts reflect nothing but mean agenda......
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #198
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

How is the life in a slum?It's always curious for me.
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 05:17 AM   #199
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

my mom visited a couple of slums in new delhi in the 90s. when this story came out, she said that she wasn't shocked. according to her, men in slums are raised like "animals"...you have to be to survive as the lowest denominator in a country of over 1 billion. and the "tough at all cost" mentality can translate into behavior such as this as adults.
(obviously that's a generalization, since there are plenty of moral and decent people in slums as well)
sam l is pretty spot on, imo, about the socioeconomic problems plaguing india that led to this.
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 06:33 AM   #200
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?



http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true

Conquering the fear of the setting sun

Ravinder Kaur






TOPICS

The fight against rape DelhiNew Delhi
crimesexual assault & rape
social issue



The struggle for something as basic as equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday ordeal that women without resources feel more acutely

One of my distinct memories of growing up in Delhi involves the everyday spectre of a setting sun. My mother, worried about my safety when I started at university in the early 1990s, made me promise that I would always return home before dark. The home-before-sunset wasn’t a rule as such but a ‘safety measure’ that was followed by most of my female friends, acquaintances and neighbours. It was neither questioned nor explained. The routine was so deeply ingrained that rushing home before dark seemed like a matter of commonsense. For most of the female residents of the city, the dying glow in the sky marked the temporal limits before which to conclude their share of public activities. An elderly neighbour used to call it ‘Lakshman Rekha’ — the invisible boundary drawn by Rama’s brother Lakshman to protect Sita — which women must obey for their own safety. It was, as if, an informal state of curfew was imposed daily after sunset on one half of the population.
Curfew
The brutal gang rape and eventual murder of a young woman in Delhi two weeks ago have tragically fore-grounded this state of curfew and question of women’s full right to access public spaces. More importantly, it has disclosed not only the gendered but also the classed nature of denial of this right. The section of female population that is most dependent on public goods such as means of transport is also the more underprivileged and vulnerable one. These women can neither retreat into the increasingly privatised world of the mobile middle class — mobile in every sense of the word — nor can they ‘opt-out’ of public services whenever they choose to. At a moment when public participation and prominence of women are growing in a range of fields, it has become possible to imagine the irrelevance of moral codes of patriarchy, especially in urban contexts. But what is central to this imagination is the access to mobility, including mobility in its most mundane form: physical mobility that allows one to travel from one place to another. A large population of women who are outside the orbit of middle class affluence, experience the lack of safe means of transport as suspension of their public movement after dark. The curfew may or may not always result from imposition of patriarchal values, but it surely emanates from the lack of women’s safe access to public goods such as buses and local trains. Thus, far from being an elite preoccupation, the struggle for something as basic as having equal access to public spaces as men at all hours is an everyday struggle that women without resources feel more acutely than their privileged counterparts.
Class, gender and mobility
These connections between class, gender and mobility in public spaces became apparent in the death of the unnamed young woman. Even as outrage and swift condemnation of this crime became widespread, the social media was astir with a cacophony of voices. The expression of sympathy was mixed with questions as to why she was travelling late at night (even when escorted) while others flagged her ill-judgment at not having taken enough safety precautions in a city termed as the ‘rape capital.’ In some ways, these voices were echoing the logic of the perpetrators — a woman who has transgressed her boundaries and risked venturing into a space that she is not supposed to be in is a fair game. Even while empathising with her, some commentators on various online discussions could not understand why the couple chose to take a bus home at that late hour. The fact that most likely they did not have a choice did not even occur as a possibility. Probably the middle class readers of English language newspapers could not really imagine an evening out predicated on the logistics of unreliable means of public transport.
The moment the news of the gang rape was broken in the media was also the moment of, what we may call, ‘class confusion,’ among commentators, reporters and eventually protesters. The well meaning observers instantly identified them as belonging to the middle class and underscored that this atrocity may “happen to any of us.” In the absence of details, the markers that helped associate the couple with ‘us’ or the privileged sections of middle class probably were, one, the upscale cinema complex they had visited; two, the location of the bus stop in the heart of South Delhi from where they boarded the bus; and three, the very fact that the young couple had been on an ‘evening out’ seeking entertainment and pleasure. The everyday acts of consumption and pleasure-seeking in the city are what define this actual and aspirational class identity to some extent. The unnamed woman and her companion later turned out to belong to the aspiring section of society whose mobility depends on safe public services. The class confusion, however, did help turn personal empathy into public protests — the kind of public outpouring that remains missing in the rapes of tribals, Dalits and poor women.
The gang rape ultimately opened an almost alien world for the upwardly mobile middle class — a world where it is not possible to simply secede from public goods and services. The city is lived and experienced very differently by men and women, the privileged and the unprivileged. Yet the dominant narrative is woven around the middle class which is said to be the prime motor of growth in a post-reform nation that increasingly sees itself as a global player. The gains of economic liberalisation can be witnessed in new consumption patterns as well as in concrete forms of massive infrastructure building in urban centres. The cityscape itself has altered with new public spaces — shopping malls, multiplex cinemas, coffee shops — that primarily attract youth population. Even as the range and form of public spaces expand, the city itself has become more segregated than ever before. Increasingly, the affluent either inhabit ‘privatised’ realms of new gated colonies or enclose existing residential localities with security and entry restrictions. And all those who can afford tend to use private means of transport rather than public. The introduction of metro rail in Delhi has by no means diminished the status attached to the ownership of a private car.
Near-absence
It is in this new classed realm of public/private discrepancies that we need to address the old questions of gendered ‘curfews’ and the safety of women. In re-formed India, it is not female mobility which is under curfew as such, rather that of underprivileged women whose safe mobility remains at stake. Despite the initial middle class enthusiasm for the shiny metro, the primary users of public transport are largely those who lack resources to enter the private zones of mobility. The near absence of women in buses and metro becomes acutely visible at night time. The curfew — a voluntary imposition — comes into force in these public spaces where few remaining women passengers are either looked at with sympathy (encouraged to ‘hurry home’) or with intimidation. The city turns into an alienating, intimidating place particularly for those outside the comfort zone of private mobility.
Patriarchal values are reinforced by the state which often advises women to refrain from “risky behaviour” — of travelling after dark — for their own good. This ‘advice’ was most recently offered by a high ranking police officer who also suggested that women should not travel at night, and if they do, they arm themselves with chilli powder to combat potential criminals. The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, is also known for believing that women should not be so ‘adventurous’ so as to stay outside past midnight. In short, the government perpetuates the idea that the ‘outside’ is not a legitimate space for women to occupy.
The solution for women is obviously to not retreat but occupy the ‘outside’ if the fear of the setting sun is ever to be conquered. This involves as much demanding adequate lights, security in public spaces as challenging patriarchal values. And this also demands class solidarity from those women who have seceded into a privatised world of new India.
(Ravinder Kaur is Director, Centre of Global South Asian Studies, University of Copenhagen)
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 06:44 AM   #201
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle4222945.ece

‘By fielding rape accused, parties are abetting crime’


Rape accused were given party ticket for six Parliamentary seats, 27 Assembly seats

With political parties in the last five years giving Lok Sabha election ticket to six persons and State election ticket to 27 persons, who declared that they were charged with rape — and six MLAs with rape cases now actually representing people in the Assemblies — a demand has been raised that the practice of fielding people with criminal backgrounds be stopped forthwith.
It was in the backdrop of the outrage over Sunday’s gang-rape in Delhi and at a time when Parliament was seized of the matter, that National Election Watch (NEW) and the Association for Democratic Reforms (ADR) “looked at the background of our lawmakers [MPs and MLAs] with respect to rape cases and other crimes against women based on their self-sworn affidavits.”
The national coordinator for NEW and ADR Anil Bairwal; founder member and former IIM Ahmedabad professor Jagdeep Chhokar; and member and IIM Bangalore professor Trilochan Sastry said they “found that there are several lawmakers who have similar cases pending against them as per their last affidavit declaration to the Election Commission of India.”
The group said that in the 2009 Lok Sabha elections, the political parties gave ticket to six persons who declared that they had been charged with rape. They included one each from the RPP, the Revolutionary Communist Party, the Bahujan Samaj Party and the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha and two Independents. During these polls, 34 other contestants declared that they had charges of crimes against women.
While Parliament is debating the issue, two of its members — one of the All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam from Tamil Nadu and the other of the All India Trinamool Congress from West Bengal — have also declared that they face charges, such as cruelty and intent to outrage a woman’s modesty.
The situation in the State elections is even worse.
As per the report of NEW and the ADR, “six MLAs have declared that they have charges of rape against them in their sworn affidavits submitted with the Election Commission of India at the time of their election. Of these six MLAs with declared rape cases, three are of the Samajwadi Party from Uttar Pradesh; and one each is of the Bahujan Samaj Party, from U.P., of the Bharatiya Janata Party from Gujarat; and of the Telugu Desam Party from Andhra Pradesh.
Of the 27 candidates who have rape cases against them and were yet given party ticket for State elections, 10 were from Uttar Pradesh and five from Bihar.
Apart from these, the group said, “36 MLAs have declared that they have other charges of crimes against women such as outraging the modesty of a woman, assault, insulting the modesty of a woman” registered against them.
Of these, six are from the Congress, five from the BJP, and three from the Samajwadi Party. Incidentally, Uttar Pradesh has the maximum number of such MLAs at eight; followed by Orissa and West Bengal with seven MLAs each.
The group said “by giving ticket to candidates who have been charged with crimes against women especially rape, political parties have been in a way abetting circumstances that lead to such events that they so easily but vehemently condemn in Parliament.”
It has thus demanded that “candidates with a criminal background should be debarred from contesting elections” and “cases against MPs and MLAs should be fast-tracked and decided in a time-bound manner.”
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #202
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Re: Ohio Rape: High School Students Joke About Rape In Leaked Video !

^^^

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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #203
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

shed tears whenever I heard about this brutal act, poor girl, may she rest in heaven for peace now
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #204
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Re: Ohio Rape: High School Students Joke About Rape In Leaked Video !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......
What? You think Indian women shouldn't go out alone at night?
Have you not seen images of the protesters in India. I think a significant number of Indian women feel that they should be able to go out at night. Why should a woman feel that she needs to stay in at night? Women should do whatever they like without having to fear violence, harassment or even judgement from anyone, male or female.

Also, women go out alone at night in many countries, not just in the west.
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #205
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Re: Ohio Rape: High School Students Joke About Rape In Leaked Video !

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Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
exactly......with all the attention the latest incident in india is getting, people like tennisbum and jr want people to believe that the situation serves as a proof of intolerance in india and how far the country still needs to go......it is as if they are alien to rapes in their own country......

what makes me say all this is that they are in no position to say that when far more worse assaults are happening on all sexes in their own country.......

blindly making blanket statements like "women should be able to freak out all alone in the night" is not correct.......that may suit the women in the west as they maybe single for most parts of their lives and feel the need to do whatever they want being alone......that's when i talked about the differences of cultures......

tennisbum and jr turned a blind eye to it and kept pointing at the incident and the outrage in india......jr went as far as taking one or two disastrous incidents, generalized them and asked me if that's what i meant by culture......

their posts reflect nothing but mean agenda......
Uh, tennisbum and I "turned a blind eye to" nothing in either case, which (as regards the one in India) seemed to drive you nuts. Neither of us would ignore the contributing "cultural factors".... with more detail from me, ala sex selection abortion, and sometimes its "post-birth cousin", female infanticide.

Sure the PC thing is to only call rape a crime of violence and power, but it IS also about sexual gratification; so the "young female shortage" the above have created in large parts of India contribute to the rape stats. Those who refuse 2B silent about these "all too common" things are better friends of potential rape victims there than UR.

tennisbum and I have clear "post trails" here of bashing those elements of American culture that lead to things like school shootings and a host of other social ills. As debopero correctly noted, this should not be turned into a US vs. India thread. Many countries have serious ills, that others can criticize without being "haters".
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #206
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

At least they have death penalty in India and since their law system doesn't seem as loop-holed as the American one they will probably be hanged sooner rather than later. They deserve nothing less IMO.
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #207
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
At least they have death penalty in India and since their law system doesn't seem as loop-holed as the American one they will probably be hanged sooner rather than later. They deserve nothing less IMO.
Not for 'rape' but possibly for murder. I don't think they will get the capital punishment (they would be 'dead men walking' in China at this moment though).
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Old Jan 4th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #208
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

The Chief Minister name perfectly described what she is saying to women
From the article posted by Ashi
Quote:
The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, is also known for believing that women should not be so ‘adventurous’ so as to stay outside past midnight. In short, the government perpetuates the idea that the ‘outside’ is not a legitimate space for women to occupy.
I totally agree, in fact I have been making this argument in this thread.
The Chief Minister should take note of this.
Quote:
The solution for women is obviously to not retreat but occupy the ‘outside’ if the fear of the setting sun is ever to be conquered.
This involves as much demanding adequate lights, security in public spaces as challenging patriarchal values.
And this also demands class solidarity from those women who have seceded into a privatised world of new India.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 12:00 AM   #209
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

For posters who were trying to pin the majority of rape on slums and the poors, here is politicians who just rape a woman.

CNN correspondent in India is reporting that, before the rape of the medical student that provoke the demonstrations, rapes by politician and law enforcement were always swept under the rug.

IN addition to intimidation by politicians and law enforcement officials, there is also a stigma associated with rape in the general population.
Hence, rape is under reported.

Quote:
Indian politician accused of rape is publicly beaten and stripped by mob of angry women

Congress Party member Bikram Singh Brahma was beaten, slapped and had his shirt ripped off after being arrested and charged with rape, police said.




www.liveleak.com

Bikram Singh Brahma,[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, 'sans serif'] a prominent Congress leader in Assam, was charged with rape and lashed publicly by angry women. His arrest came as five men in New Delhi were charged in a now infamous gang rape and murder. [/font]




As five men were formally charged in a New Delhi court with the gang rape and murder of a medical student, several angry women took justice into their own hands after another alleged assault about 1,200 miles away in India's Assam state.

Bikram Singh Brahma, a member of the Congress Party in Assam and president of a district Congress committee, was arrested Thursday and charged with rape, police said.
After word of the accusation got out, a group of women in Chirang district publicly slapped and beat the 54-year-old man, pulling off his shirt and bashing him repeatedly across the head. The lashing was caught on video by local media.

Brahma's car was also damaged, The Hindu newspaper reported.

The mob justice in Assam came after days of nationwide protests demanding the government do more to protect women against sexual violence following the Dec. 16 gang rape of a 23-year-old woman on a bus in New Delhi. The victim died two weeks later, and five men face the death penalty for her murder.
A rape is reported in India every 20 minutes.


www.liveleak.com

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, 'sans serif']Brahma was arrested after the woman’s husband filed a report with local police. Word spread to the town and the mob attack was caught on video.[/font]


Brahma was accused of attacking the woman Wednesday night while staying at her family's house, police said. Her husband allegedly walked in on the assault. "A rape has been committed and the accused has been arrested on rape charge," Inspector-General of Police G.P. Singh told The Hindu.

It was unclear how Brahma has responded to the accusations against him, but his son has accused the victim and her husband of criminal conspiracy and theft, Daily News India reported.


Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1233074
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Last edited by tennisbum79 : Jan 5th, 2013 at 03:30 AM.
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Old Jan 5th, 2013, 12:25 AM   #210
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Re: India gang rape outrage... what happens now?

these men are just horrible, animals are a lot better than them
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