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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #31
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Can someone from Florida please tell me how the "Stand Your Ground" law came about?
And I mean the honest to goodness unbiased 'truth'. Not the publicized or legally documented account.
Anyone else besides Helen Lawson that is.

I'm sorry but I just can't accept a single word that comes out of that poster's mouth.

Helen Lawson, you're too Bi-polar and lacking in integrity to be believed.
Sorry.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 03:54 AM   #32
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

quite clearly racism involved......
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #33
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Originally Posted by Helen Lawson View Post
I'm from Florida. There were some trials that were well publicized where the people killed someone else in self-defense outside the home, but the prosecutor charged them anyway, claiming that they had the duty and the ability to retreat, which was then the law. The cases were very sympathetic to the defendant in that it was upstanding types and the dead person was a career criminal in the middle of some crime, etc. They were extreme cases, nothing like the two pending now. These people were having to stand trial and explain how they didn't think they could retreat or it happened so fast, they didn't have time to figure out a retreat. Then the prosecutors were arguing that they could have retreated, second guessing the defendant's mental state in a moment of emergency. I think all of these people were acquitted, but a murder trial is horrible and people felt sorry for them. There was a public thought that if the duty to retreat didn't exist, people like this wouldn't have to stand trial and if they had to prove self-defense anyway, who cares about the duty to retreat. So, everyone was all in favor of it, that if someone attacks you in public, you don't to second guess defending yourself.

A white chick plugged her ex or estranged husband about a year ago and tried to use stand your ground in Seminole County in front of the old Trayvon Martin judge, but it was denied, she's going to trial and have to prove inability to retreat to a jury.


interesting...


white on white crime doesn't usually assist in the comparison but do you remember the circumstances of that case? is it the same sort of circumstances where the marissa alexander got 20 years for firing a warning shot and was denied SYG even though her husband had a history of domestic violence...it seems a bit strange that she wasn't afforded the immunity of SYG because:

"there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life."

in contrast with george zimmerman or this current case where both were outdoors and could easily have fled the scene if they felt threatened but instead chose to go up to the people they felt threatened by and "claim the kids had guns" and start shooting...even with evidence showing there were no weapons, both are still clinging to that defence...

it does seem a bit strange that people walk around pulling guns on black kids and can say they felt threatened IN OPEN AREAS, yet when black kids (and black people in general) shoot someone (or in marissa's case - fire a warning shot that harms no one) they aren't usually afforded the same innocent til proven guilty...

but i am only looking from the outside of the US and going by media and internet reports
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #34
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

If you search stand your ground and the name of the first Trayvon Martin judge and woman or husband, you might find the articles, the Orlando Sentinel was running a lot about the story because it was the same judge and they wanted to see how he treated the issue with her. Stand Your Ground is not real popular when the defendant knew the victim, there's sort of a presumption in everyone's mind that the killer set it up, too bad the battered woman got thrown out with the bathwater on that one it seems. It was meant to protect someone from having to explain and stand trial over a decision they made under stress in a few seconds on fight or flight, it was, in my opinion, not meant to apply to Zimmerman, and certainly not to the gas station killer.

People do run around killing each other in Florida, it's easier to (legally) get a gun permit than to get a driver license.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 12:48 AM   #35
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Maybe we need a separate gun control thread. God bless America!
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #36
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen Lawson View Post
If you search stand your ground and the name of the first Trayvon Martin judge and woman or husband, you might find the articles, the Orlando Sentinel was running a lot about the story because it was the same judge and they wanted to see how he treated the issue with her. Stand Your Ground is not real popular when the defendant knew the victim, there's sort of a presumption in everyone's mind that the killer set it up, too bad the battered woman got thrown out with the bathwater on that one it seems. It was meant to protect someone from having to explain and stand trial over a decision they made under stress in a few seconds on fight or flight, it was, in my opinion, not meant to apply to Zimmerman, and certainly not to the gas station killer.

People do run around killing each other in Florida, it's easier to (legally) get a gun permit than to get a driver license.

ah ok

that's a bit messed up though shouldn't it be based on the circumstances of each individual case? i think that's what is complicating these matters and making them more race biased than it needs to be...in studying criminal law i agree with the "intent" behind the law as we can agree that there are some cases where a person can be convicted of a murder/manslaughter where their lives were in danger and they just acted, and, black or white, you don't want people under threat to feel the have no choice but to run and have to be wary of using deadly force in a situation where they clearly aren't thinking through things.

but it's now become hunting season where people who have an inherent fear of blacks, are hiding behind this to kill those they always wanted to get rid of...it remains to be seen therefore how these 2 cases in particular go, as they could set a very hard precedent to get rid of
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #37
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Originally Posted by BuTtErFrEnA View Post
ah ok

that's a bit messed up though shouldn't it be based on the circumstances of each individual case? i think that's what is complicating these matters and making them more race biased than it needs to be...in studying criminal law i agree with the "intent" behind the law as we can agree that there are some cases where a person can be convicted of a murder/manslaughter where their lives were in danger and they just acted, and, black or white, you don't want people under threat to feel the have no choice but to run and have to be wary of using deadly force in a situation where they clearly aren't thinking through things.

but it's now become hunting season where people who have an inherent fear of blacks, are hiding behind this to kill those they always wanted to get rid of...it remains to be seen therefore how these 2 cases in particular go, as they could set a very hard precedent to get rid of
This is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #38
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.
You're basing this on:
A black woman cannot use it against her ex
A white woman cannot use it against her ex
It's been raised as a defense in the killings of two black youths with no decision yet.
??
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #39
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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RIP young brother. Thanks to confessed murderer George Zimmerman it's open season on Black male teens in Florida. Funny it's always the one with the gun who feels threatened.
Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #40
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

If the guy he shot was white, Asian or hispanic this would not even have made the news and no one here would have posted an article if it had
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #41
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass
He'll have to wait in line, cuz Williamsser already has RACIST, confessed child murderer George Zimmerman's lawyers on my case.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #42
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Originally Posted by Sweety Darling View Post
Why are you making this a racist incident? I didn't read anywhere in the article it was a hate crime. So what you said is slanderous - hope he sues your ass
No one in their right mind would believe what JN says, a complete defense to a slander claim!
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #43
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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He'll have to wait in line, cuz Williamsser already has RACIST, confessed child murderer George Zimmerman's lawyers on my case.
Stop being a slanderous prick, then.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 11:19 PM   #44
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

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Stop being a slanderous prick, then.
Don't get me wrong, that wasn't a complaint.
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
And JN will call it a duck.
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Old Dec 7th, 2012, 11:53 PM   #45
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Re: Here we go again: Florida teen killed in dispute over loud music

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This is precisely my point and what seems to be happening now.
And happening with legal authorities support.

There is a serious lack of concern for Black-Americans where the law is applied.
And this is a historical fact. Most White-Americans really don't care for the well-being of Black-Americans because, it's culturally ingrained, or institutionally ingrained.
Of course there are a sprinkling who do care, but are drowned out by those in power and who make these legal decisions.

Ultimately, White-Americans will have to become the primary victims before ANYTHING is done to curb this law. So I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, I believe that Black-Americans should also apply for gun ownership and begin the process of protecting themselves now.
Let's just see how well that goes over with Floridians and the legal authorities, shall we?

Seriously, this was a predicted outcome regardless of how one hoped it would initially turn out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen Lawson View Post
You're basing this on:
A black woman cannot use it against her ex
A white woman cannot use it against her ex
It's been raised as a defense in the killings of two black youths with no decision yet.
??

the bolded reminds me a bit of what i read and watched on documentary about the blood/crip war, where it wasn't treated as a big deal (the blacks were killing the blacks), until a white woman got injured...I'd hope it doesn't

SN: are there any free databases where you have access to US Case law?? I'm interested in looking up the cases where this law was used and the outcomes, but of course the only databases i have paid access to are UK and C'bean
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