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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #76
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
No counter-puncher would ever spray the amount of shit she can on court. The margins that a counter-puncher plays with are huge, relying on consistency off the ground and deflecting pace.
Total misconception. Considering how obsessed you are with Clijsters, you must surely be aware that, in her second career, on her off-days she could spray the ball just as much as Li can (even though Kim's off-days were less frequent). And I'm sure even you wouldn't deny that Clijsters was a counterpuncher. Ditto Jankovic, who on her worst days can make dozens of errors even with a relatively conservative gameplan. The idea that you only make errors when you're trying to go for huge shots was disproven long ago.

Quote:
Li can generate her own pace for a start. Do people really think Li was 'counter-punching' against Schiavone's junk and loop in the RG final? Or when she beat Wozniacki in Australia? Or when she demolished the ultimate puff-baller Radwanska in Cincinnatti? Or when she demolished Azarenka in the AO and RG in 2011? She was playing, aggressive, authoritative tennis that had the luxury of above-average athleticism to allow her to rally effectively. But that is not counter-punching. Counter-punching as a game-style needs to be the primary instinct of a player, not just one vague characteristic.
No, Li is NOT good at generating her own pace -- she hates having to do it because she doesn't have the raw firepower or technique to do it with anything approaching consistency. The AO2011 final is the perfect example of this -- the turning point in that match was Clijsters starting to feed her junk shot after junk shot, which resulted in Li either simply patting the ball back in exchange, or, on the occasion she did try to hit a huge shot off of Clijsters's puffballs, she missed horribly.

Of the examples you listed -- actually she did counterpunch to beat Azarenka in Australia and Paris in 2011. Azarenka was still under the impression she was a ballbasher at this stage and was trying to hit with as much power as she could, which played right into Li's hands and gave her the pace and presented the targets on the court for her to aim into. Azarenka only turned that match-up around by deliberately playing more conservatively against Li in their latest matches, constantly just hitting mid-paced shots into the centre of the court and forcing Li to be the aggressor and construct the point herself, and predictably Li was incapable of doing it.

Li's latest matches against Radwanska are the only real times she's managed to play well against someone who doesn't give her pace to work with, but it's only since she linked up with Rodriguez that she managed to actually figure her out. Her performance against her in Stuttgart, on the surface where Li should match up best with Radwanska, was completely inept.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #77
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
Absolute rubbish. Li for a start doesn't move half as well as any innate counter-puncher. A strong, powerful mover, but she's nowhere near as supple as Jankovic, Pennetta, Bondarenko, Myskina, post 2007-Demetieva, and nor is she as reliant on it. Her shot selection isn't anywhere near as conservative as a true-counter puncher, she hits with much more width, she goes for often low % shots (especially on her FH), her footwork is incredibly aggressive around the ball, and her instincts are to land blows as early as she can in the rally. Now this does not mean first-strike tennis in the ilk of Davenport, but it does NOT mean she's a counter-puncher. She's an aggressive ball-striker who can RALLY. There is a distinct difference and a fundamental gamestyle that isn't even related to a counter-puncher.

No counter-puncher would ever spray the amount of shit she can on court. The margins that a counter-puncher plays with are huge, relying on consistency off the ground and deflecting pace. Li can generate her own pace for a start. Do people really think Li was 'counter-punching' against Schiavone's junk and loop in the RG final? Or when she beat Wozniacki in Australia? Or when she demolished the ultimate puff-baller Radwanska in Cincinnatti? Or when she demolished Azarenka in the AO and RG in 2011? She was playing, aggressive, authoritative tennis that had the luxury of above-average athleticism to allow her to rally effectively. But that is not counter-punching. Counter-punching as a game-style needs to be the primary instinct of a player, not just one vague characteristic.

It's absolutely ridiculous.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #78
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Something like this.....

1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Sharapova
4. Williams
5. Stosur
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Radwanska
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki

Some probably consider it a compliment to be at or near the top of the list and an insult to be in the lower regions, but I don't think that either one is true.
Well, like it or not, but the top four players in your list have won 21 slams and 5 YECs (combined).

The bottom four players of your list have won ZERO slams and ZERO year-end-championships.

Experience is telling us that players who are labelled by some as brainless ballbashers like Li and Petra can once in a while (two weeks is enough ) keep their shots between the lines and win a slam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Voices View Post

[ballbashers - aggressors]
kvitova, li, masha, stosur

[multi-talented]
serena

[power pushers]
vika, kerber

[pusher - defenders]
aga, errani, woz

Great way to look at it, I agree, although there are obviously some notable differences within individual groups.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #79
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Not that I have too much time on my hands - but I used the Winner/UE stats at matchstat.com to see how the top 10 compared.

I know Winner/UE stats are notorious for potential subjectivity, but thought it was at least worth a look.

** FOR 2012 SLAMS **

Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Maria
43% - Petra
42% - Na
39% - Serena
37% - Vika
36% - Sam
29% - Angie
26% - Caro
25% - Sara
22% - Aga

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
45% - Serena
36% - Maria
34% - Petra
33% - Na
32% - Sam
30% - Angie
29% - Vika
25% - Aga
24% - Sara
21% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
49% - Sara
48% - Caro
42% - Aga
38% - Angie
32% - Na
32% - Sam
26% - Petra
25% - Vika
23% - Serena
20% - Maria

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
50% - Sara
48% - Aga
43% - Caro
39% - Angie
26% - Sam
24% - Serena
22% - Vika
21% - Petra
18% - Na
18% - Maria

As I was still bored I did the same for last year

** FOR 2011 SLAMS **

Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Na
43% - Maria
40% - Petra
37% - Serena
35% - Sam
32% - Angie
27% - Vika
26% - Aga
24% - Caro
23% - Sara

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
42% - Petra
41% - Serena
35% - Angie
33% - Maria
33% - Sam
30% - Na
28% - Vika
27% - Aga
26% - Sara
20% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
47% - Aga
46% - Caro
40% - Sara
32% - Angie
31% - Na
30% - Sam
26% - Serena
24% - Vika
23% - Maria
21% - Petra

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
44% - Sara
44% - Caro
44% - Aga
38% - Angie
31% - Sam
29% - Vika
26% - Serena
21% - Maria
20% - Na
17% - Petra

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've always thought of Maria as the most 'bash-prone' of the top players. For 2011 and 2012 combined she tops the stats for the UE ratio (ahead of Na and then Petra), but is 3rd (behind Serena and Petra) for the winners ratio.

Which would indeed imply that for the last two years, Maria has been (on average, and only just) the player least able to control her aggressive play at the slam level
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 11:32 PM   #80
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

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Originally Posted by pling View Post
Not that I have too much time on my hands - but I used the Winner/UE stats at matchstat.com to see how the top 10 compared.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 12:43 AM   #81
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Li is a ballbasher because most of the time that is how she plays; it is her instinct to be aggressive and goes for shots that are not there. However, dsander is right that she is better when counter-punching, reflecting pace, and redirecting the shots to make winners––that is why her sole grand slam came on clay. But that style does not last, since she lost most of her superb athleticism she had in 2010-mid 2011. Plus, her short temper does destroy that talent in her; therefore, she will self-destruct and completely switches off to BBB mode: for example, her AO final match in 2011 against Clijsters in which she was surely going to win, but went cuckoo because of the immense pressure from the Chinese crowd. Moreover, I belief that patience she had during her prime was diminished, although I'm not sure whether the decreased patience is related to her declined athleticism, but I would assume they are.

So here you go. I will not rank Li as counter-pucher because it is not in her instinct, like how Azarenka had tried to be ball-basher, and that also didn't work out well––Azarenka is naturally counter-puncher with controlled aggression.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #82
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennis-insomniac View Post
Li is a ballbasher because most of the time that is how she plays; it is her instinct to be aggressive and goes for shots that are not there. However, dsander is right that she is better when counter-punching, reflecting pace, and redirecting the shots to make winners––that is why her sole grand slam came on clay. But that style does not last, since she lost most of her superb athleticism she had in 2010-mid 2011. Plus, her short temper does destroy that talent in her; therefore, she will self-destruct and completely switches off to BBB mode: for example, her AO final match in 2011 against Clijsters in which she was surely going to win, but went cuckoo because of the immense pressure from the Chinese crowd. Moreover, I belief that patience she had during her prime was diminished, although I'm not sure whether the decreased patience is related to her declined athleticism, but I would assume they are.

So here you go. I will not rank Li as counter-pucher because it is not in her instinct, like how Azarenka had tried to be ball-basher, and that also didn't work out well––Azarenka is naturally counter-puncher with controlled aggression.
Carlos said so. He said something like Na's fh or bh broke down or she just wanted to keep the points short when she was tired this year. Stamina is one of the things that Carlos wants to help Na to improve in Winter training.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 02:21 AM   #83
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

1. Li
2. Kvitova
3. Stosur
4. Sharapova
5. Serena
6. Azarenka
7. Kerber
8. Errani
9. Radwanska
10. Wozniacki
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 09:56 AM   #84
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pling View Post
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've always thought of Maria as the most 'bash-prone' of the top players. For 2011 and 2012 combined she tops the stats for the UE ratio (ahead of Na and then Petra), but is 3rd (behind Serena and Petra) for the winners ratio.

Which would indeed imply that for the last two years, Maria has been (on average, and only just) the player least able to control her aggressive play at the slam level
Maria has hundreds of fans on this forum so don't expect this forum to admit that her ballbashing is even more brainless than that of Petra and Li in spite of the hard statistics

As you can see from additional posts, the myth continues, with people putting Li and Petra ahead of Maria

BTW, I think some netplay statistics (net points / net attempts) might be also interesting.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 10:05 AM   #85
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius View Post
Maria has hundreds of fans on this forum so don't expect this forum to admit that her ballbashing is even more brainless than that of Petra and Li in spite of the hard statistics

As you can see from additional posts, the myth continues, with people putting Li and Petra ahead of Maria

BTW, I think some netplay statistics (net points / net attempts) might be also interesting.
I ranked Li, Petra and Serena ahead of Maria because I find them more aggressive than her not more brainless. IMO the title should be changed to "Rank the top 10 from the most offensive to the most defensive". That's what the OP meant I think.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 11:25 AM   #86
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

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Originally Posted by Hisagi. View Post
I ranked Li, Petra and Serena ahead of Maria because I find them more aggressive than her not more brainless. IMO the title should be changed to "Rank the top 10 from the most offensive to the most defensive". That's what the OP meant I think.
There is a problem. It should either "the most offensive to the most defensive" or "the smartest to the most brainless". Offensive does not always mean brainless. Serena is an example. I believe that Kvitova has a smart non-2D game, but it is the matter if her game is on; it is very hard to keep control of such power and accuracy she SOMETIMES has. Whereas, Wozniacki is defensive, but her game does not seem very smart. I see no combinations in her game, just deep defensive shots. She does not use her chances, but is fantastically athletic.
So BBB is kind of a stereotypical category
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #87
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

1. li
2. kvitova
3. sharapova
4. azarenka
5. serena
6. stosur
7. kerber
8. radwanska
9. wozniacki
10. errani
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #88
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

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Originally Posted by DomenicDemaria View Post
Serena is just as aggressive as Li and Kvitova (if not more agressive). I am confused at why people are dropping her down the list just because she can actually defend unlike Li and Kvitova. Tennis is not a one way game. You have to play both offensively and defensively. You wouldn't 15 slams if you weren't the most aggressive player on tour.
Serena can play more aggressive than Kvitova, there's no doubt, but this not about ballbashing potential, it's about what they do on the court. The thing is that Serena has options, while Kvitty's options are limited. For sure she can improve her defense (like Ivanovic did in 2008), but she'll never reach Serena's level in that department. Her fitness is a huge issue atm, so she's forced to finish the point fast. Serena rallies more often and with much more success.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 04:05 AM   #89
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

1. Kvitova
2. S. Williams
3. Azarenka
4. A. Radwanska
5. Li Na
6. Stosur
7. Kerber
8. Sharapova (screaming is not aggression)
9. Errani
10. Wozniacki
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #90
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Re: Rank the top 10 players from "BBB" to "pusher"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pling View Post
N
Bash Factor® (UE as % of points lost)
44% - Maria
43% - Petra
42% - Na
39% - Serena
37% - Vika
36% - Sam
29% - Angie
26% - Caro
25% - Sara
22% - Aga

Attacking Force® (Winners as % of points won)
45% - Serena
36% - Maria
34% - Petra
33% - Na
32% - Sam
30% - Angie
29% - Vika
25% - Aga
24% - Sara
21% - Caro

Pushing Power® (Opponents' UE as % of points won)
49% - Sara
48% - Caro
42% - Aga
38% - Angie
32% - Na
32% - Sam
26% - Petra
25% - Vika
23% - Serena
20% - Maria

Vulnerability Quotient® (Opponents' Winners as % of points lost)
50% - Sara
48% - Aga
43% - Caro
39% - Angie
26% - Sam
24% - Serena
22% - Vika
21% - Petra
18% - Na
18% - Maria
Golda Errani shining on every aspect of pushing
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