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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #61
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #62
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by The Dawntreader View Post
There are inevitably going to be a huge number of ATP and WTA gays. It's naive however to not understand what the hesitations and restrictions are when it comes to professional sportsmen and women 'coming out'.

I mean look how shallow and vapid the media culture is over the WTA these days regarding grunting. If Female tennis players are scrutinised relentlessly over such irrelevant and trivial things as that, there is already a disincentive for WTA pro's to illuminate their private lives, especially controversial subject matters such as their sexuality, into the public domain. I don't think the press is that accepting at all. Look how they distorted Mauresmo's coming out.

For male ATP players, it'd be even worse. We live in a very pro-masculine society especially when it comes to spot, where gay men are often seen as disassociated from sports. They are often perceived as effeminate, and ultimately alien to these masculine grand narratives we see in sports specifically. I mean could you imagine if a top 5 ATP player came out as gay? The ATP that brands their players as warriors, promoting this robust, dominant image of masculinity, and then suddenly having to reconcile with someone not adhering to these ideals. Imagine the types of repercussions on the player, simply for addressing his own sexuality publicly.

It doesn't just happen in sport either, but it's the most glaring and disturbing example of self-suppression of sexuality, purely because the culture of sport is so crude and brazen with stereotype.
I'd go one step further. It could be the public having to reconcile with their own notions. You could have a gay man that may exemplify that warrior persona, but the public not buy it based on their perception of 'gay'. Therefore, even a macho gay guy could still lose out.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #63
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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I'd go one step further. It could be the public having to reconcile with their own notions. You could have a gay man that may exemplify that warrior persona, but the public not buy it based on their perception of 'gay'. Therefore, even a macho gay guy could still lose out.
Exactly. The contradictions are disgusting.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #64
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Jan-Michael Gambill had a pretty good following in his day, and he never denied the rumors...

And another one Jim Courier, great looking guy, got 50 million dollars in the bank, 45 years old and never married, never seen in public with girlfriend, no kids...
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 06:42 PM   #65
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

If a tennis player come out, and he is good enough, he will make a lot of money in endorsements. Sports doesn't evolve that much, but society does, and the firms knows what is profitable.
And a tennis player can make a good living even without enodorsements if he (or she) is good.
Of course there's a lot of reasons to not doing it, because it adds a lot of extra pressure. But for some people, specially new generations, stay in the closet is not an options, and there's a lot of people who can't truly reach their whole potential keeping that kind of secret.

On the other way, there's a lot of hollywood actors dating fake girlfriends, and that's a supposed pro gay place, so it's obvious that it's not an easy step
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 07:00 PM   #66
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by espana View Post
I think a player can benefit from revealing that he's gay. Look at Frank Ocean - before he revealed he's gay he was basically unknown, but after, he became a huge star, his album was released early due to high demand from fans - it went #1 on iTunes, he got invited to lots of shows and music awards. It's expected that he'll be nominated for several Grammys and other musicians praised him for coming out. I think the first one to come out could potentially really benefit from it. Society is more acceptable of gays & lesbians than ever.
That's not exactly true. Frank was well known in hip hop because he was a member of Odd future, and he has some high profile colaborations like Beyonce. It was a good buzz about him and his talent way before Channel Orange was released.
He came out (well that wasn't exactly a coming out) because he was very honest in his lyrics, so anybody who hear the album will know that some of the lyrics talk about men.
The fact that the reviews of the album were great probably help him to have good sales.

I think sooner or later a player will decide to come out, but it has to be because he really feels better doing it. Right now most young talented players are struggling to reach their potential, and coming out (in the case that one of them is gay) will be a big distraction.
And it depends of personality, some mentioned Richard Gasquet, i don't know if he is gay or not, but he is exactly the kind of player who won't come out of the closet, because the guy is very shy and he won't be comfortable aswering questions.

Coming out of the closet is not the same that talking about your private life, saying that you are gay is not giving more information that saying that you are straight, but we know how press works, so the guy who decides to come out must be ready to that.

But the Frank Ocean comparision is good in some sense, a year ago nobody could think that someone linked to hip hop (he is more a r&b singer) will come out, and even less, have success after that. So who knows what is going to happen in a near future. There are rugby players that came out, and in a sports team is far more difficult than in an individual team.

I think the first high profile athlete to come out it will be a tennis player, because is an individual sport (so basically it will be his decision) and because it's a sport well payed. People on individual sports who depends of endorsements are less likely to come out (even with the fact that firms will not retire the endorsements, because that will be very bad publicity), and the same in sport that depends of jury (like gymnastics).
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #67
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Beat View Post
it's not taboo, it's just fucking annoying and disrespectful when posters make assumptions about players without knowing anything.
It's no more annoying and disrespectful than speculating about which player is dating which guy (in case of WTA)/girl (ATP). Unless of course you include a moral judgement.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #68
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

Look at the WTA we all know who the lesbians are we don't have to guess. People pretty much have a good idea. It seems odd on the ATP Tour that no one can identify who the gay men are besides Jan Michael Gambill. There has to be someone at least two guys in the top 100 who are gay.

I will be honest, I prefer if a gay male tennis player to come out that he's someone that is actually a GOOD PLAYER. I mean, lets be real here would Billie Jean King and Martina Navaratilova or Amelie Mauresmo coming out get a lot of press if they weren't tennis champions? Because Martina, Amelie, and Billie Jean were top players when they came out I think it helped tennis fans to accept lesbian tennis players. The public realized in the end it doesn't matter if these women are gay because they simply respect them as tennis players.

So, I think for the ATP TOUR if a gay guy comes out I don't want someone ranked like 200 in the world or 500 to come out. It needs to be someone hopefully in the top 50 in the world or higher. Someone that has a name, and is recognizned by the tennis fans as a good player.

Also, tennis is an INDIVIDUAL SPORT, look at the boxer Orlando Cruz he came out of the closet and it never hurt his boxing career by coming out. Orlando Cruz is also a top boxer in the featherweight division he got a lot of press by coming out.

So, in men's tennis since it is also an INDIVIDUAL SPORT, there should be less for these guys to worry about. The ATP pros aren't team mates they are individuals doing their own thing. So it should be easier for a male tennis pro to come out.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #69
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Beat View Post
it's not taboo, it's just fucking annoying and disrespectful when posters make assumptions about players without knowing anything.



a) he's retired. b) i don't think he every stated this openly, has he?

to answer the initial queston: all sports - yes, even tennis - are saturated by a laddish attitude, which makes it much harder for men than for women to come out.
So it is disrespectful to discuss homosexuality but not heterosexuality? Don't fans on this board talk about the straight tennis players love lives and relationships and getting married or having children? So why the double standard for gay people?

And why is heterosexuality considered PUBLIC and not taboo yet homosexuality is considered something to be quiet about and be private?
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #70
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
So it is disrespectful to discuss homosexuality but not heterosexuality? Don't fans on this board talk about the straight tennis players love lives and relationships and getting married or having children? So why the double standard for gay people?

And why is heterosexuality considered PUBLIC and not taboo yet homosexuality is considered something to be quiet about and be private?
Speculating which players might be gay based on rumors or appearance is not the same as discussing homosexuality in general.

Although here on the forum I think we can speculate freely. This is not like a newspaper or something...
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #71
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #72
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
Look at the WTA we all know who the lesbians are we don't have to guess. People pretty much have a good idea.
I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #73
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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I'm pretty sure people would be wrong in a lot of instances. People always go for stereotypes and pretend they know stuff.. "she has short hair and looks a bit masculine, she must be a lesbian".

That does not always have to be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's feminine lesbian players out there absolutely nobody would suspect. If you think you can tell by just looking at them you`re fooling yourself, people aren't walking stereotypes.
This.
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #74
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of
So your conclusion is that most likely there are almost no gay players.
Hm, so how that makes more sense than a few of them being gay if, as you said, 5% of the population is homosexual?
And do you honestly not see how it is possible to keep your sexuality private?
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Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #75
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Re: Why do tennis fans accept lesbian tennis stars yet no one in ATP out of closet?

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Originally Posted by madmax View Post
I find it funny how you guys are so eager and desperate to "OUT" a Top tennis player - just because arround 5% of population is homosexual, doesn't mean that there should 5 gay guys or gay girls in TOP 100 too...law of averages doesn't work like that I'm afraid. And even if there are some homosexual players in the lower ranks, nobody cares about them coming out anyway. If some elite tennis player was truly gay, we would have a good clue about it in this age of globalisation and social media...end of
I call BS on so much of this. First of all, the likelihood of you being out/anyone knowing obviously varies from country to country. There would be every chance for a player from China being gay and no one knowing it. Even in the US there are still some celebrities who came out who nobody knew were LGBT before they did. Secondly, don't pass off 5% as if it's some fact. A great many studies put it higher, and it's just impossible to measure accurately as long as we live in an age that discourages people from being open about their sexuality.
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