[ExXotikal]

Originally Posted by forehand27

So 25 year old Maria is better today than 32 year old Venus. Congratulations. You want a cookie for that.

This is so not my point.
You struggle to grasp the nuances of my arguments. I aint mad at you, watching Flopnus play can do that to a humain being.

[TPlaya8]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

You have to remember here that, when Venus was at her 2000-03 peak, most people would've said super-quick hardcourts were her best surface, NOT grass. She really wasn't that dominant atall at Wimbledon in 2000-01 -- in 2000 she barely scraped past Hingis on Hingis's worst surface, and in 2001 she dropped a set to pubescent Henin.

In 2005, 2007 (bar her first 3 shitty rounds) and 2008, she was less error-prone at Wimbledon than she was in her peak years, mainly because she was better at adjusting for the bounce and crouching down lower.

And i do agree you saw her "grass game" develop more in those year" (Even though I really think it was just that is was just a stark difference than her game on other surfaces at the time) Maybe I am not sure I didn't watch Tennis regualry until 2004 and I was only watching the grand slams from from 2002-2003. I really don't know what all was said about Venus in 2000-2001 Ibut I do know by 2002 and 2003 people were already talking about their dominance at the US Open and Wimbledon and in 2005 while the tournament was sytill going on they were saying grass was Venus' best surface. (this I know for a fact I have this whole tournament on vhs)

Originally Posted by dsanders06

You guys keep flip-flopping One minute it's about achievements (even though Maria is more accomplished than Venus on the surfaces where I'm saying Peak Maria would beat her), the next minute it's about the match-up and Venus apparently owning slow ballbashers (even though Maria's equivalent in Davenport managed to compete with Peak Venus on quick surfaces, and no evidence whatsoever on slow surfaces). Make up your minds. Eitherway you don't have a strong argument

i never said it was about the chievements, please don't mistake my ideas for other posters. Maria is more accomplished at the Aussie Open and the French but i do think achievements go out the window when you say Peak vs Peak and it is more about the matchup (just like peak Serena struggled more with Capriati than any other player) but Peak Venus only lost 1 set to Capriati or Venus always had tough battles with Davenport but Serena always played her better)

It comes down to match up I honestly do believe that and i think Peak Venus matches up well with Peak Sharapova

[forehand27]

Originally Posted by ExXotikal

This is so not my point.
You struggle to grasp the nuances of my arguments. I aint mad at you, watching Flopnus play can do that to a humain being.

I am not even a big fan of Venus. I am pretty neutral to both these players. This is the most active thread here at the moment and so many ridiculous arguments being made (especialy from the Maria stans like yourself) that it is hard to not want to jump in just for the lolz. As for the nuances of your argument, that is rich.

[Craig.]

Originally Posted by Volcana

If they're both at their best, they're basically the same player, except Venus is faster, can return serve from closer to the baseline, volleys MUCH better, and can hit offensive shots from defensive positions.

Sharapova has a better second serve, but peak vs peak, there won't BE many second serves.

The difference is footspeed tells the tale. Venus will just run down and return more stuff.

Yup, I'd agree with this.

[dsanders06]

Originally Posted by Volcana

If they're both at their best, they're basically the same player, except Venus is faster, can return serve from closer to the baseline, volleys MUCH better, and can hit offensive shots from defensive positions.

Sharapova has a better second serve, but peak vs peak, there won't BE many second serves.

The difference is footspeed tells the tale. Venus will just run down and return more stuff.

But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no.

[bandabou]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no.

You keep talking about Linds making it competitive. So what?! she was still LOSING all the matches. Nobody said Vee'd bagel Maria ( for as good as Vee is, she still is no Serena)...but she still has the BIGGER game and can withstand Maria's strikes, so it's to be expected that she'd win 7 out of 10 times.

It's that simple.

[TPlaya8]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

But again, if Venus's raw footspeed was such an asset, this would apply to her match-up with Davenport. And yet, once AGAIN, we see Davenport often made it competitive against Peaknus on super-quick surfaces, and would've been a heavy favourite on slow surfaces had her and Peaknus actually played on them.

The only way you can square the realities of the Venus-Davenport match-up with a belief that Venus would own Peak Maria, is if you believe Davenport is SIGNIFICANTLY better ballstriker than Peak Maria. Which....no.

But even then thats why I said match-ups. Davenport is a tactician with awesome Power. Sharapova has power but she is not the tactical genius of Davenport.

Peak Sharapova would probably do exactly what she did to Serena in '04 and what she tried to do to Venus in '05 and that is try to outhit Venus because thats where her game lied!

Davenport never tried to outhit Venus Davenport constructed points with powerful shots with margin and consistenly tried breaking down Venus' forehand when she could.

[L'Enfant Sauvage]

Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

[madmax]

ain't it funny how HasBeenus is supposedly so superior to Pova, yet trails the H2H between the 2 in real life and is no match to Maria on hardcourts (excluding superfast Stanford HC, where she beat up on no-serve Masha, who just returned from career threatening injury and was losing to the likes of Dulko and Cibulkova LOL). It's even funnier knowing that Peak Maria (06' US Open and 08' AO) never played HasBeenus either, so the H2H between the 2 outside of Wimby would most likely be even more one sided...but let the general fools of GM carry on with their peak delusions of the peak world of Ms HasBeenus, while we mere mortals of this world will simply state the obvious facts:
Maria leads the H2H between the two 4-3
Maria is superior to HasBeenus everywhere except on grass, as the match history indicates.

[LindsayRulz]

Originally Posted by Williamsova

Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

Somebody finally understood.

[dsanders06]

Originally Posted by Williamsova

Since I refuse to remove him from my ignore list yet again, can someone please tell Dsanders that Maria isn't Lindsay. What Lindsay did against Venus is irrelevant, they are two completely different players. In terms of stroke production they are like night and day. Lindsay's strokes were more compact, so when a hardhitter like Venus hit their shot if Lindsay got to it she could smack the ball in a way that almost made the opponent's pace backfire against them. Maria on the other hand due to her longer takeback, HATES players hitting pacey/deep shots at her(Serena's raw pace, Vika's consistent deep redirects anyone?) That's why Lindsay excelled on grass and carpet, with Maria loving clay and slow hardcourts like at the Australian. If you put Maria against the very same Venus that was taken to three by Lindsay on fast surfaces, she may have simply been overwhelmed and made to hit forced errors by the pace of Venus' shots, going down in two*

There is obviously more to this matchup than that, but that's the most obvious reason as to why you can't use Lindsay's 14-13 record(or her apparently "respectable" 00-03 record of 1-9) against Venus to say Maria would do the same against Venus.

* As an aside, this is what I expect a Peaknus vs Peakpova match to look like, ESPECIALLY on grass. Venus would win by getting some extra balls back but more importantly hitting hard and linear like she tends to do, and rushing Sharapova like a lot of players(Serena & Vika at various times, even Lisicki at this year's Wimbledon) drawing a lot of errors from her.

Typical. Once again, it's YOU yourself (and other Willytards) who brought up Davenport in the first place as an argument that Maria apparently wouldn't be able to live with Peak Venus. You guys keep trying to shift the goalposts once your arguments have been shot down

Anyway, what you say about Lindsay having more compact strokes isn't particularly true, Maria's strokes ARE relatively compact. What makes Maria's game more suited to slow surfaces than Lindsay's is that Maria (even Peak Maria) doesn't have quite as good footwork as Lindsay did. This wouldn't be an issue on slow surfaces where she WOULD have had time to get her feet set in time to load up as much as Lindsay did in her match-up against Venus. And on surfaces where Maria does have time to set her feet, she probably has more firepower than Lindsay ever did. Which, considering we've already established that the Venus-Davenport match-up shows that "even" Lindsay could overpower Peak Venus at times..... what argument are you guys going to shift to next?

[dsanders06]

Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

[TheDream]

Originally Posted by dsanders06

Oh, and suggesting Maria struggles with Vika because she gets overwhelmed by her pace, is a TOTAL misreading of that match-up Maria has never actually struggled particularly with ballbashers; it's counterpunchers (like Azarenka) who she hates playing.

Azarenka's instincts are more aggressive than most counterpunchers. But, you also said Serena's defense and movement was bad as well.

[WeiWei]

Venus with no doubt

[madmax]

Originally Posted by TheDream

Azarenka's instincts are more aggressive than most counterpunchers. But, you also said Serena's defense and movement was bad as well.

LMAO...I've seen plenty of Vuvurenka's match stats, where she ends up with single digits in winners category and still whoops some scrub's ass, who outwinners her 2 to 1.. Her game is ALL about consistency and counterpunching, which explains her stellar record on hardcourts and not so stellar results on natural surfaces, where you need to generate your own pace