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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 02:32 AM   #16
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

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Originally Posted by Uranium View Post
The bold comments are comical. Lindsay is not a tough draw and yet she ended 2001 as the #1 player. 2007 was not a tough draw despite Venus playing Maria, Sveta, and Ana. Sveta played great in that match btw.
Serena had tough draws in 2002 and 2003. Get the fuck out of here 2002 she only had Venus, similar to your 2008 comment. Very tough 2002 draw 2003 was tough.
You have the balls to call 2007 easy while you call Serena's 2002 tough.
Davenport ending 2001 as year end #1 is merely an example of the outrageously comical ranking thing starting. She was #1 in NOBODYS mind except the computer that year, Venus and Capriati were both light years ahead of her, and Serena was also much better than her that year. Davenport was mired in a period of stagnation and even slumping, and was no contender to win any slams from 2001-2003 and everyone knew it. As it was she didnt even reach a single slam final any of those years (nor 2004 either, although late 2004 is the first time she became a contender to win slams again).

As for the idea of Kuznetsova and Ivanovic being tough opponents on grass a huge ROTFL to that. Neither would even rank amongst the top 15 grass courters of their era.

You say in 2002 she only had Venus? She had Mauresmo in the semis, who is probably the 4th best grass courter of the Williams era behind the 2 Williams and Davenport. Now that said you would have a point if you hadnt stupidly tried to build up Kuznetsova and Ivanovic, as Mauresmo in 2002 probably wasnt much different from Davenport in 2001, but are you actually suggesting that Ivanovic, Kuznetsova, or even Sharapova are tougher opponents on grass than Mauresmo!?!?! As for your last comment what the fuck are you smoking, Venus and Mauresmo in 2002 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivanovic, Kuznetsova, and Sharpova (by far best of those three but weaker grass courter than Mauresmo, and light years weaker one than Venus of course). Thanks for the laughs all around.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #17
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

^You are talking about Mauresmo post 2002 though. I am talking about Mauresmo in 2002. I am talking about Kuznetsova and Ivanovic playing well in the 2007 matches and being top ten players at that time, while you say they suck on grass in their careers. And Mauresmo in 2002 was much different from Lindsay in 2001. Difference is I am talking about tough draws as they were played/at that period of time, not looking back and basing judgment on how tough they were considering what they have done since then like you're doing.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 02:51 AM   #18
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

You seem to be suggesting Venus had a tough draw in 2007 and Serena didnt in 2002. Sorry there is simply no way I could agree with that. Lets break down their opponents from toughest downwards:

Venus 2002 >>>>> Sharapova 2007
Mauresmo 2002 >>> Bartoli 2007 (Bartoli is a tougher opponent on grass than either Kuznetsova or Ivanovic btw)
Hantuchova 2002 = Kuznetsova or Ivanovic 2007 (Hantuchova was at her peak and I dont think in anyway is a lesser grass courter to either Kuznetsova or Ivanovic, both whose worst surface by far is grass)

Now as for comparing 2001 to 2002 which you seem to also disagree with, the toughest opponent Venus played in 2001 was a slumping Davenport and obviously 2002 Venus is way tougher than 2001 Davenport. 2002 Mauresmo would instead be compared to 2001 Henin as the second toughest opponent, and the general feeling is Mauresmo is a better grass courter than Henin even prime to prime and in general, and Henin was much further from her prime in 2001 than Mauresmo in 2002.

Yes I am aware 2002 Mauresmo was not peak Mauresmo, but it was probably already prime Mauresmo. She was already winning tier 1 titles, beating top players in slams, and starting her ownage of Capriati around Capriati's peak. Of course she wasnt going to win any slams with the Williams peaking then, but that is aside the point. The main point is I am completely sure Mauresmo of 2002 was already a much better grass courter than Kuznetsova or Ivanovic ever were.
Mauresmo btw was easily a "top 10" player in 2002, just as Ana and Svetlana in 2007 were.

For what it is worth I think the competition talk is pointless in the sense that any year Venus and Serena are playing well enough to win Wimbledon, there is no available draw at any given time that could have stopped them. The only ones who can stop them in a year they are in Wimbledon winning form is each other, the only other one who even came close ever in that case was Davenport in 2005 and Dementieva in 2009, that is it. My only point was I dont see Venus overall as having had much difference in tougher competition than Serena. For me Serena had tough draws in 2002 and 2003, an ok draw in 2009, and easy ones in 2010 and 2012. Venus had tough draws in 2005, 2000, an ok draw in 2000 and 2001, and an easy one in 2007. Not much difference either way.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 03:04 AM   #19
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

People also forget 2003 where Venus was supremely injured was by far the better player up until her injury in the semifinals.
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 03:58 AM   #20
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

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Originally Posted by maharbabackwards View Post
People also forget 2003 where Venus was supremely injured was by far the better player up until her injury in the semifinals.
^ This. Venus was the best player in that entire tournament at the time then all the semifinalist. and if there was going to be anytime Venus was goint to try her hardest to take it too Serena during that '02-'03 stretch it would have been here. I think she would have fought harder than she did in Melbourne, because Wimbledon '02 was the only time I seen Venus show negative emotion after losing to Serena there was actually a tear coming down her face after losing to Serena at Wimbledon she was playing with a purpose in '03

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Originally Posted by forehand27 View Post

Yes I am aware 2002 Mauresmo was not peak Mauresmo, but it was probably already prime Mauresmo. She was already winning tier 1 titles, beating top players in slams, and starting her ownage of Capriati around Capriati's peak. Of course she wasnt going to win any slams with the Williams peaking then, but that is aside the point. The main point is I am completely sure Mauresmo of 2002 was already a much better grass courter than Kuznetsova or Ivanovic ever were.
Mauresmo btw was easily a "top 10" player in 2002, just as Ana and Svetlana in 2007 were.
and you are saying all this about Mauresmo and th eplayer she was in 2002 but Svetlana was a Grand Slam Champion at this moment and had Tier 1 titles by 2007. Ivanovic had just come off a French open final and between Kunestova and ivanovic they were finalist in 4 out of 5 Slams in that moment. Only Wimbeldon were Venus beat them both, was the Grand Slam neither one of them made it to the final. '07 US Open -Kunestova, Ana- '07 French, '08 Aussie, '08 French!


I think they were tougher contenders than Mauresmo of 2002 she hadn't been in a slam final since 1999 and didn't reach another one until 2006!
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Old Nov 18th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #21
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Re: Better Grass Court Player: Venus vs Serena

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Originally Posted by TPlaya8 View Post
and you are saying all this about Mauresmo and th eplayer she was in 2002 but Svetlana was a Grand Slam Champion at this moment and had Tier 1 titles by 2007. Ivanovic had just come off a French open final and between Kunestova and ivanovic they were finalist in 4 out of 5 Slams in that moment. Only Wimbeldon were Venus beat them both, was the Grand Slam neither one of them made it to the final. '07 US Open -Kunestova, Ana- '07 French, '08 Aussie, '08 French!


I think they were tougher contenders than Mauresmo of 2002 she hadn't been in a slam final since 1999 and didn't reach another one until 2006!
Mauresmo was only stopped at Wimbledon and U.S Open 2002 by peak Williams, and barely at that by peak Venus at the U.S Open later that summer. I dont think I need to tell to you Kuznetsova and Ivanovic wouldnt have been making any slam finals either facing peak Williams of 02. Lets be honest that Kuznetsova and Ivanovic were making so many slam finals in 07/08 was mostly due to the pathetic state womens tennis was starting to reach. All slam finals they were in were weak matches, the U.S Open final where Henin raped Kuznetsova a new one later that year was a joke, the French Open final a month earlier where Henin butchered Ivanovic into pieces was even worse. Those were on their favorite surfaces though, not even on grass where neither are any good.
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