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View Poll Results: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

2002 106 83.46%
2012 21 16.54%
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #91
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
Laj, your points were completely credible and logical. And I'm not the only one who thinks this.

What I don't understand is why so many posters feel that double Olympic Gold is on the same level as a Tier I tournament.
Come on people. Are you all serious?
So what, Serena flubbed the FO. Small deal there.
She still returned thereafter to annihilate the field on the largest stages for the second half of this year.
I could possibly accept that 2002 is equal to 2012 in terms to tournament success. However, Serena did not win the 2002 YEC, and also there was no Olympics that year. But this year she took both, and in dominating fashion.
IMHO, these are the two events that sets 2012 and 2002 apart for me.

As far as Serena being a step faster in 2002. I agree that she was.
But today, she no longer has to be as fast as her 2002 self since she is a more complete player, and has a wider arsenal of shots on which to fall back on to negate the necessity of speed. Though even in 2012, she's still one of the fastest WTA athletes in the field.
So speed is negligible in the overall argument.

No one has yet truly demonstrated how 2002 is superior to 2012. Even in terms of achievements.
What I've been reading is all relative opinion.
That said, I maintain that 2012 was a monster year for Serena, and edges out 2002.
RVD slam performances is what makes 2002 way better than 2012 and that is not even debatible.

Plus i would always take a slam out of a YEC and Olympic gold, even if they are in the same year. Is not the YEC or the Olympic Gold that would move Serena along in the all time great ranks.

I personally feel that she was a better player back then, always amazed on how she would only allow single digit winners in matches, and she definetly was returning serve way better than she is today.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 08:03 PM   #92
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

2002 was the best season Serena ever had. Her semifinal wimbledon match against Mauresmo was like a heavyweight fight. Mauresmo fresh off of her quarterfinal victory over Caprati was serving and playing well. Serena played what I consider her best match ever. The match was so physical, Mauresmo had to be helped off of the court. It was a straight set 2 and 1 match.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #93
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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RVD slam performances is what makes 2002 way better than 2012 and that is not even debatible.

Plus i would always take a slam out of a YEC and Olympic gold, even if they are in the same year. Is not the YEC or the Olympic Gold that would move Serena along in the all time great ranks.

I personally feel that she was a better player back then, always amazed on how she would only allow single digit winners in matches, and she definetly was returning serve way better than she is today.
I don't agree spencercarlos. And yeah, it's my opinion, however, when the Olympics is a part of the equation, how can any fan of this sport just chuck it over their shoulder as if it's a nothing achievement to win Gold (or double Gold)? IMHO, that is no small feat. And especially in her twilight years (30 years old), and in such dominating fashion.

I notice that when other WTA players win Olympic Gold, it's huge news. But when Serena does it ,it's not a big deal.
I also believe that her ROS today is better as well.
I can't count how many times she's tee'd off on first and second served this year. Though I could concede that it may be equal to her 2002 level.
But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on these points.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 10:12 PM   #94
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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...No one has yet truly demonstrated how 2002 is superior to 2012. Even in terms of achievements.
What I've been reading is all relative opinion....
Ok, I'll bite.... A season where a player wins Wimbledon and US Open, then possibly the Year-ender is undoubtedly dominant, a run shared by two handfuls of peers and modern-era predecessors. Special note if during that run there's an Olympics on the player's favorite surface.

But the French-Wimbledon-USOpen triad is the rarest, most difficult and historic of seasons to achieve. And the reasons why are perennial: the varied surfaces, the difficulties of adjusting to the switches, the timing, with most all top players and talented surface specialists training to peak during those months, and either win it or giant-kill. So many of our greats have come one, three or six matches short. So players, commentators, fans and historians of the game do rightly value those dominant runs over others. Usually the player (Serena, Rafa, Steffi) has other big titles bracketing that run. It'd be great if the Olympics were also played that year, but not at all necessary.

....
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #95
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

I would say 2002, mainly because back then Sereta had (at least nominally) some competition. Nowadays, if she isn't too bored to stand up, she wins.
Further, 2002 was really the breakout year for what is turning out to be an all-time great career. Prior to that, Sereta was the also-ran younger sister, and Richard Williams got laughed at for saying she would have the better career. Her contemporary opponents shit themselves on seeing her, so even all the big titles she won seem like anticlimaxes. Of course, this is all my opinion.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 10:39 PM   #96
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This.

Serena is a by far a more complete and relaxed player in 2012 than she was in 2002.
More complete = More superior.
Purely in terms of wins/records, 2002 would appear the greater year.
However, the mental and technical improvements of 2012 Serena, would stomp 2002 Serena.
The 2002 version would quickly become frustrated with the 2012 version, and invariably lose.
One last note...
Let's not forget that Serena did achieve/complete the career Golden Slam thus year.
True, but they do have a point about her facing much tougher opposition. Azarenka is really great, but she fades in comparison to Henin, Venus, Clijsters and Davenport (all multiple slam winners). So, owning the current #1 and #2 is not the same as it was in 2002.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #97
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Ok, I'll bite.... A season where a player wins Wimbledon and US Open, then possibly the Year-ender is undoubtedly dominant, a run shared by two handfuls of peers and modern-era predecessors. Special note if during that run there's an Olympics on the player's favorite surface.

But the French-Wimbledon-USOpen triad is the rarest, most difficult and historic of seasons to achieve. And the reasons why are perennial: the varied surfaces, the difficulties of adjusting to the switches, the timing, with most all top players and talented surface specialists training to peak during those months, and either win it or giant-kill. So many of our greats have come one, three or six matches short. So players, commentators, fans and historians of the game do rightly value those dominant runs over others. Usually the player (Serena, Rafa, Steffi) has other big titles bracketing that run. It'd be great if the Olympics were also played that year, but not at all necessary.

....
Great points.
I like the "surface" argument, and I'll grant you that that is huge.
And I also agree that Serena faced stiffer competition during her 2002-2003 season.
I offset the lack of competition in her 2012 year with her age, which is probably not the best equalizer.
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Originally Posted by TennisPhan View Post
True, but they do have a point about her facing much tougher opposition. Azarenka is really great, but she fades in comparison to Henin, Venus, Clijsters and Davenport (all multiple slam winners). So, owning the current #1 and #2 is not the same as it was in 2002.
Okay, I concede that 2002 was superior to 2012, on the bases of continual relentless competition, and her dominance regardless of the opponents.

The 2013 season had better show me some competition from the up-in-comers. Otherwise, Serena won't be able to surpass her 2002 run before she retires.
The iron is still hot, and baby-girl needs to strike the hammer.
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #98
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

But, RVD, you along with others in this thread have made a persuasive argument for Serena now being another version of her peak, at least equal to her '02-'03 self. The only real blemish is her mental consistency, and by YEC it looked like she'd once again made that shift from being desperate to win to being determined. She clearly knew how to manage herself, her form and her expectations, as well as her competition.

If she can maintain her mental and physical fitness, as well as her training regimen, all I'd need baby girl to do is repeat the French-Wimbledon-USOpen triad, add a handful of titles...and I'd call 2013 (or 2014) the equal of 2002.

...
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 01:53 AM   #99
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

2002 obviously, 3 slams > 2 slams
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 04:14 AM   #100
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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But, RVD, you along with others in this thread have made a persuasive argument for Serena now being another version of her peak, at least equal to her '02-'03 self. The only real blemish is her mental consistency, and by YEC it looked like she'd once again made that shift from being desperate to win to being determined. She clearly knew how to manage herself, her form and her expectations, as well as her competition.

If she can maintain her mental and physical fitness, as well as her training regimen, all I'd need baby girl to do is repeat the French-Wimbledon-USOpen triad, add a handful of titles...and I'd call 2013 (or 2014) the equal of 2002.

...
I still hold to that belief.
However, 2002 season achievements seems to me to have edged out 2012's purely on the basis of competition Serena faced. Both years were extraordinarily dominant ones for her, and arguments can be made for both. I still don't accept the, "If only she had won the AO or FO, then 2012 would have been the better year," argument, because her Olympics success made up for one of those.
I still feel strongly that the 2012 Serena is superior to the 2002 Serena though.
It's the, "which year was the most dominant one", is what I'm conceding. But just by a scant hair's width.

Correction:
Under further consideration, competition faced is a relative consideration at best.
If a dominant players defeats her opponents, that's all that's necessary, regardless of the subjective levels of the opposing players. And since any player can defeat another player on any given day, the argument that Serena faced stronger competition in 2002 can't be used to support the argument that 2002 was superior to 2012.
*smacks forehead*
That said, I'm solidly back in the 2012 corner.
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #101
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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...Correction: Under further consideration, competition faced is a relative consideration at best....
I knew this reversal would happen!...which is why I avoided the competition argument (though it is a sound one).

Quote:
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...I still don't accept the, "If only she had won the AO or FO, then 2012 would have been the better year," argument, because her Olympics success made up for one of those...
So let's instead return to the argument that should hold: I think by most folks' objective evaluation, winning three slams on three different surfaces (esp French, Wimbledon and US Open) makes for a stronger period of dominance than Wimbledon, US Open and Olympics on grass (actually the same Wimbledon courts).

Also, 2012 Serena can't be superior to 2002 Serena if she's less mentally tough. At that stratospheric level, mental toughness is the decider. But I see everything coming together for Serena 2.0 in 2013 and '14....

...
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 08:00 AM   #102
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

I am pretty sure that 2002 will go down in history as a much better year for Serena than 2012 - for reasons that will become clear later, but which you cant talk about out loud on this forum, because the thought police will come in and start deleating your posts...
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #103
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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I am pretty sure that 2002 will go down in history as a much better year for Serena than 2012 - for reasons that will become clear later, but which you cant talk about out loud on this forum, because the thought police will come in and start deleating your posts...
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #104
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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I knew this reversal would happen!...which is why I avoided the competition argument (though it is a sound one).
Immediately after posting the change of heart, I thought, "What the hell did I just post?! That's not what I believe!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by azinna View Post
So let's instead return to the argument that should hold: I think by most folks' objective evaluation, winning three slams on three different surfaces (esp French, Wimbledon and US Open) makes for a stronger period of dominance than Wimbledon, US Open and Olympics on grass (actually the same Wimbledon courts).
The different surface argument is a very credible argument. I grant you that. And at the moment, I don't have a counter-argument against it.

Quote:
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Also, 2012 Serena can't be superior to 2002 Serena if she's less mentally tough. At that stratospheric level, mental toughness is the decider. But I see everything coming together for Serena 2.0 in 2013 and '14....
And touché yet again.

Kudos azinna.
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Old Nov 15th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #105
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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True, but they do have a point about her facing much tougher opposition. Azarenka is really great, but she fades in comparison to Henin, Venus, Clijsters and Davenport (all multiple slam winners). So, owning the current #1 and #2 is not the same as it was in 2002.

LOL...Davenport was injured in 2002 and only played a few tournaments.
Henin and Clijsters in 2002 were nowhere near the level Azarenka or Pova are in 2012 and Venus was always Serena's underling in Slam finals. In fact, one could argue that the competition in 2012 was stronger than it was in 2002 which is also why Serena didn't even get close to the #1 ranking in 2012 (unlike 2002).

Of course achievement-wise (unlike what RVD claims ), 2002 was a much better year for Serena since she won more Slams, was more dominant overall and was #1 for the most part of the year.
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