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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #76
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Originally Posted by Viktymise View Post
Off-topic, but this got me thinking - has anybody got the full list of the youngest players to win a WTA tour level match? I did some quick research and made a stab at the top 5 myself but it's probably wrong...

1) Vaidisova - 13 years, 10 months
2) Capriati - 13 years, 11 months
3) MJ Fernandez - 14 years, 8 days
4) Hingis - 14 years, 1 month
5) Larcher de Brito - 14 years, 2 months

Othe players that I know won matches at 14 as well as Keys:

Seles
Kournikova
Karatantcheva
Kutuzova
Nicole What a great achievement. Why couldn't you just keep winning?
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #77
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Nicole What a great achievement. Why couldn't you just keep winning?
Except that she didn't do it.

Perhaps you need to read this thread more thoroughly.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #78
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

Im not sweeping it under the rug, just saying there are limited opportunities against top 100 players, so you can't use that argument to bring down other players chances if they were given another shot.

Thanks for that information about Alison. Although most teenagers are completing their education so not really relevant. Now taking into consideration Alison's limited schedule, she has played 19 tournaments (which WTA site not yet updated). Ash has played 13 tournaments. Alison made WTA QF, Ash has made no points from WTA. But Ash is in top 200, while Alison isn't.

I think we disagree completely so no more point talking about this.


BlueTrees you always look to have a say about Robson But you gotta admit she has broken through to the Top 100 and even though she's not the youngest, she has already achieved what none of these players have yet.


Also I forgot about Beck, but her results this year in ITF have been great. Another girl to look out for in 2013. But she has already made Top 100
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:15 PM   #79
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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BlueTrees you always look to have a say about Robson But you gotta admit she has broken through to the Top 100 and even though she's not the youngest, she has already achieved what none of these players have yet.
How does that even make sense though, to compare a girl born in January 1994 to girls born in mid-1996 and act like she's going to be way better than them? Vekic and Barty have had considerable more success than Laura at the same age, it's just the truth
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #80
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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How does that even make sense though, to compare a girl born in January 1994 to girls born in mid-1996 and act like she's going to be way better than them? Vekic and Barty have had considerable more success than Laura at the same age, it's just the truth
Well... to her credit she is there. But OP didn't include her in this discussion anyway. Just hope posters like LethalLaura stick around when things go south
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:32 PM   #81
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

So many OFF TOPIC posts about youngest players to win a WTA tour level match that Its hard to read about what OP want it.
So only girls from 1995/1996/1997?
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #82
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

Yeah, if I were to make a list I'd make a point of excluding Laura. She counts as a youngster (she's younger than Bouchard, for example) but let's be honest, Laura doesn't need to be pointed out.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:43 PM   #83
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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How does that even make sense though, to compare a girl born in January 1994 to girls born in mid-1996 and act like she's going to be way better than them? Vekic and Barty have had considerable more success than Laura at the same age, it's just the truth
Actually Robson was getting competitive results against top 100 players at a younger age than Barty is now. At Barty's current age, Robson had won sets against Benesova & Hantuchova and she had actually scored a win against Goerges. Her overall results against tour players was substantially better than what we have seen so far from Barty, who is 0-10 in sets won against against top 100 players.

Vekic is a bit different. She has had one outstanding tournament in Tashkent. It is possible that could be indicative of how she plays throughout next year. However looking at her remaining results I am not so sure. I think it is a sign of how good she is going to be but I have to say Donna's Tashkent results don't reflect the level she was playing at before that event or after it.

Anyway, surely you must know not to get trapped into "the youngest to do xxx will end up the with the best career" kind of thinking. It doesn't really matter a great deal if player A won more 25ks at 16 than player B once both players are in the top 100 and competing on the WTA tour. It is only then that we find out who is best. And frankly the amount of 25ks or whatever that a player wins as a teen I don't think has a lot of bearing on that.

When looking at teens I look for 2 things above all else. 1) How well they play against established pros and 2) A sudden shift in the level of results a player produces. If a player from out of nowhere suddenly puts together say 3 or 4 events that are substantially better than what they had been doing previously then it is a good indication they are ready for the next level. For example what impresses me about AKS is her steady improvement throughout the year. At the start of the year AKS had only one 10k to her credit. By the end of the year she was winning 25ks and taking sets off established tour veterans. She is making fast progress. But even those things only matter in the short term. What matters in the long term is how committed a player is and how hard they are prepared to push themselves. And when we look at players of 16 to 18 years old, those are things that we won't end up finding out about them until they are into their early 20s, and sometimes even later than that.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #84
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Yeah, if I were to make a list I'd make a point of excluding Laura. She counts as a youngster (she's younger than Bouchard, for example) but let's be honest, Laura doesn't need to be pointed out.
Um...she's actually not. Robson is January 1994, Bouchard is Febuary 1994. But I get what you're saying.

And for the record I never said Robson wasn't talented or anything, but FFS, we don't need to hear about how great she is in every damn thread, especially in one which specifically asked to not include her.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #85
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Um...she's actually not. Robson is January 1994, Bouchard is Febuary 1994. But I get what you're saying.

And for the record I never said Robson wasn't talented or anything, but FFS, we don't need to hear about how great she is in every damn thread, especially in one which specifically asked to not include her.
Yeah, that was a cockup. Not quite sure how I convinced myself that February comes before January but what difference does a month here or there make anyway?

And I know you haven't, Blue and I agree with you about Laura not needing to be pointed out. Actually, I agree with you on most things. You're annoyingly right a lot of the time. I also missed the part of the OP where he/she explained why Robson was omitted (I looked at the list then scrolled down). Apparently I fail at reading as well as months. I should probably go back to pre-school and iron that out.

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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #86
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Um...she's actually not. Robson is January 1994, Bouchard is Febuary 1994. But I get what you're saying.

And for the record I never said Robson wasn't talented or anything, but FFS, we don't need to hear about how great she is in every damn thread, especially in one which specifically asked to not include her.
I'm with you on that. Robson has established herself on the tour, as it was always pretty obvious she would. But now that she is on the tour she is just another WTA player working to improve like everyone else ranked at that level. I think sometimes it is clear a player has what it takes to make it onto the WTA tour, and Robson was just such a player. But one NEVER knows what a player will do once they are on the tour. She might have a big star studded career or she might struggle to get into the top 30. She might have a good year and then falter and fall back as a lot of players do or she might improve year on year. But nothing she has or hasn't done in the past is going to help or hinder her now. Players don't get brownie points for getting to the top 100 early.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #87
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

At the start of the season a lot of people would still have predicted that she was overrated, had never played at a good level and was too slow to ever be a top player. It was only when she took on the new coach that her game clicked and suddenly everyone is raving. Its the same for the other juniors, they will only make the top 50 if they get the right setup which can get the most out of their game.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #88
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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Actually Robson was getting competitive results against top 100 players at a younger age than Barty is now. At Barty's current age, Robson had won sets against Benesova & Hantuchova and she had actually scored a win against Goerges. Her overall results against tour players was substantially better than what we have seen so far from Barty, who is 0-10 in sets won against against top 100 players.

Vekic is a bit different. She has had one outstanding tournament in Tashkent. It is possible that could be indicative of how she plays throughout next year. However looking at her remaining results I am not so sure. I think it is a sign of how good she is going to be but I have to say Donna's Tashkent results don't reflect the level she was playing at before that event or after it.

Anyway, surely you must know not to get trapped into "the youngest to do xxx will end up the with the best career" kind of thinking. It doesn't really matter a great deal if player A won more 25ks at 16 than player B once both players are in the top 100 and competing on the WTA tour. It is only then that we find out who is best. And frankly the amount of 25ks or whatever that a player wins as a teen I don't think has a lot of bearing on that.

When looking at teens I look for 2 things above all else. 1) How well they play against established pros and 2) A sudden shift in the level of results a player produces. If a player from out of nowhere suddenly puts together say 3 or 4 events that are substantially better than what they had been doing previously then it is a good indication they are ready for the next level. But even those things only matter in the short term. What matters in the long term is how committed a player is and how hard they are prepared to push themselves. And when we look at players of 16 to 18 years old, those are things that we won't end up finding out about them until they are into their early 20s, and sometimes even later than that.
I agree that Barty's results against Top 100 players aren't good, but the rankings don't lie Barty's winning streak in ITFs is too much to ignore for a 16 year old. She's improved a lot over the course of the year. The only Top 100 players Barty has played since the beginning of the year (when she was just 15 years old!) are Kvitova and Vinci, and you're delusional if you think Robson would've taken sets off them. I'm not saying that Barty would necessarily be better than Robson, but it's not out of the question.

It's just really not right to compare a girl born in January 1994 to girls born in April/June 1996, because she won a few sets over some decent players, yet ultimately didn't win the match anyway. That's like comparing these girls to the likes of Azarenka, Radwanska and Wozniacki, going through the statistics and what they achieved at the same age. It's really barely relevant when the age gap is that wide.

Vekic's results since Tashkent have been fine? She reached the SF of $100K Suzhou where she lost to Hsieh, and QF of $125K Pune (where she was injured and lost to Tanasugarn). She had a bad loss in the QF of $25K Seoul but Yuxuan Zhang is another good player who nobody's talked about yet in this thread. Donna easily reached the final qualifying round of the US Open (dropping just five games) so the signs were there that she was ready for a big break through. I didn't expect it so soon, but it was always going to happen.

Larcher de Brito is a player who as a 15/16 year old had several Top 100 wins (including Aga Radwanska), took sets off the likes of Serena and Kuznetsova. On the other her results on ITF level were pretty awful in comparison, she never won her first ITF until she was 18, and it was just a $25K. So I'm guessing you thought Larcher de Brito was going to be a really great player and are shocked at how bad she's doing now?
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #89
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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I agree that Barty's results against Top 100 players aren't good, but the rankings don't lie Barty's winning streak in ITFs is too much to ignore for a 16 year old. She's improved a lot over the course of the year. The only Top 100 players Barty has played since the beginning of the year (when she was just 15 years old!) are Kvitova and Vinci, and you're delusional if you think Robson would've taken sets off them. I'm not saying that Barty would necessarily be better than Robson, but it's not out of the question.:
Well, seeing as Laura beat Vinci in straight sets on clay this year, I don't consider it very delusional to think she'd beat her on grass at Wimbledon.
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #90
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Re: Your Top 5 Youngsters to Watch in 2013

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I agree that Barty's results against Top 100 players aren't good, but the rankings don't lie Barty's winning streak in ITFs is too much to ignore for a 16 year old. She's improved a lot over the course of the year. The only Top 100 players Barty has played since the beginning of the year (when she was just 15 years old!) are Kvitova and Vinci, and you're delusional if you think Robson would've taken sets off them. I'm not saying that Barty would necessarily be better than Robson, but it's not out of the question.

It's just really not right to compare a girl born in January 1994 to girls born in April/June 1996, because she won a few sets over some decent players, yet ultimately didn't win the match anyway. That's like comparing these girls to the likes of Azarenka, Radwanska and Wozniacki, going through the statistics and what they achieved at the same age. It's really barely relevant when the age gap is that wide.

Vekic's results since Tashkent have been fine? She reached the SF of $100K Suzhou where she lost to Hsieh, and QF of $125K Pune (where she was injured and lost to Tanasugarn). She had a bad loss in the QF of $25K Seoul but Yuxuan Zhang is another good player who nobody's talked about yet in this thread. Donna easily reached the final qualifying round of the US Open (dropping just five games) so the signs were there that she was ready for a big break through. I didn't expect it so soon, but it was always going to happen.

Larcher de Brito is a player who as a 15/16 year old had several Top 100 wins (including Aga Radwanska), took sets off the likes of Serena and Kuznetsova. On the other her results on ITF level were pretty awful in comparison, she never won her first ITF until she was 18, and it was just a $25K. So I'm guessing you thought Larcher de Brito was going to be a really great player and are shocked at how bad she's doing now?
Nope. I actually didn't see MLDB being that successful but I kept an open mind because the results were good. When your head is telling you one thing and the results are saying something else an open mind is always the best policy.

Additionally, what I have been saying is that top 100 wins are a better indication that a player is heading for the top 100 than success at 25k level. In the case of MLDB, that proved true as she reached the top 100 at a very young age. But the other thing I have said is that it doesn't matter when you get to the top 100, it is certainly not a race, what matters is what you do once you are there. And MLDB rather supported that view too.

One thing that actually always left me doubtful about MLDB was her emotional state. When you see players having tantrums it usually doesn't bode well for the future. There are exceptions but a lack of emotional maturity can often be a hindrance. It certainly has been for her. That, and her size always meant that she was going to have to work that much harder than the players around her, a problem that Putintseva and to a lesser exent Barty also face. I don't say short players can't succeed in tennis, but the odds aren't stacked in their favour and they have to work twice as hard. What Errani has done this year, doesn't come easily.

I have to say, your Robson/Barty comparisons are silly too. Robson had 9 top 50 victories last year, one of them was against Roberta Vinci as a matter of fact. Suggesting Barty who is playing a diet of some of the easiest 25ks on the planet in Australia is at this level is risible. Let me be clear. Ashleigh is 16, she is doing very well for someone who is sixteen winning loads of Aussie 25ks. But there is a vast difference between between beating the Tammi Patterson's and Sally Peers's of this world and beating top 100, let alone top 50 players. And Barty has shown no sign of being close to beating established WTA tour pros. That's not a big problem right now. She is 16. She has time. Another year on the tour and I expect she will be that much stronger.

I must add though, I don't believe Barty is even at the level of play Robson was on at that age but if you have read everything I've written I don't think that matters much anyway. Barty will in all likelihood establish herself on the main tour. I don't believe it will be next year though. She has a lot of improving to do. Once there we will see how she performs. Given her physical size, I would say the odds of her being more successful than Robson are small, not miniscule small but in the 10-20% range.

Donna Vekic? She is another matter, and it is true I might be being too cautious on her. She has a much better shot at breaking through next year than does Barty. Her results in Tashkent were amazing. But I want to see her get a few more decent wins before I'm really sold that she is going to be comfortable playing next year on the main tour which given her current ranking is what we can expect to attempt. I suspect she needs a little more time to come good and she might fight it pretty tough on the main tour to begin with. We will see. That said, she obviously has as good potential as any player in the game right now and in the long run I expect her to do just fine.
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