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View Poll Results: Outside of winning Slams, what is the next most important factor when it comes to ran

How many total weeks spent @ number one. 50 25.64%
Versatility; being able to win titles on all surfaces. 51 26.15%
Total number of (non-slam) tournaments won. 40 20.51%
Win/Loss record; H2H Records. 36 18.46%
How many years you end the season @ number one. 7 3.59%
other (please explain) 11 5.64%
Voters: 195. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jul 15th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #91
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Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

Those who have voted for #How many total weeks spent @ number one or #How many years you end the season @ number one, do you really think that Vika and Caro are greater than Clijsters or Sharapova?? :|
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Old Jul 16th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #92
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Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

How many years you end the season @ number one
this is a pretty impressive standard
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Old Jul 16th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #93
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Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

^^^^Weeks at number one and YE#1 is always going to be subordinate to slam wins in determining greatness. Slam wins are the only criteria offered that have existed since the beginning of women's tennis in anything approaching an objective or consistent form.

Women's tennis number one players existed before the WTA was formed and before computer rankings.
Players like Margaret Court and Maureen Connolly were women's tennis number ones for a very long time, ending the year ranked #1 numerous times, on a completely different system.

There have been far more number one women's tennis players than the 21 WTA #1s in the history of women's tennis. And I think it's short sighted when people quote these weeks at number one stats as if that is "history" in its entirety.

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When analysing the history of women's tennis people make two big mistakes:
1) Thinking the "open era" is even one iota relevant. Women's tennis was never "closed" to be "opened" again.
2) Thinking pre-WTA tennis was different or that stats pre-WTA aren't relevant. The creation of the WTA changed the sociological, political and commercial elements of the game - not the actual game or the way it was played or the way matches and tournaments were won.
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Old Jul 16th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #94
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Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

This only works when comparing players of the same era, as prize money has obviously increased over the years, but I often think career earnings is a very good way of comparing the success of players. Firstly for the obvious reason that at the end of the day all the players are out there to earn money and nothing reflects their level of success in doing so better than career earnings.

But also career earnings does work as a very good gauge for reflecting the success of players because it takes in earnings at all levels, from ITFs to Slams, and in both singles and doubles, and the earnings made at tournaments, both big and small, in singles and doubles, are generally very pretty proportional to the importance of that event.

Additionally career earnings takes account of various elements of a player's career many other stats overlook, things like longevity, consistency and ability to play both singles and doubles well.
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Old Jul 16th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #95
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Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

Cuteness of bangs.
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Old Jul 16th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #96
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Cool Re: GOAT Checklist: Best way to rank greatness (beside # of slams won)?

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Old Aug 5th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #97
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Re: Ranking the greats: Most important criteria following slams?

Best way?! Win everything!
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Old Aug 5th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #98
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Re: Ranking the greats: Most important criteria following slams?

Surely this has to be win-loss record.

How do you measure versatility? Until 1975, almost all tournaments were on grass. Hard courts only became the majority from 80s onwards.

And Rod Laver was more equal in his ability to dominate his peers on clay and grass than Federer who never solved the problem of Nadal on clay and yet most people still don't hesitate to declare him GOAT.
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #99
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (besides slam count)?

The thread CGS floating around reminded me of this old thread....(bump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaSharp View Post
Those who have voted for #How many total weeks spent @ number one or #How many years you end the season @ number one, do you really think that Vika and Caro are greater than Clijsters or Sharapova?? :|
This thread is about ranking greatness and in the first post I acknowledged that the general best measure is number of slams won. So assuming u have two players with the same amount of slams won u have to then go down the list of what u think is the next most important factor. And thats the question at hand. So ur question about Vika or Caro vs Clijsters and Pova is Irrelevant. Now had they all four had the same amount of slams won then the amount of weeks spent at number one WOULD be a major factor.
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #100
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

I would like to think after you have the slams, your career record (this should determine both your dominance and longevity), would be come next. Cause one is for prestigious titles (majors), and one is for your overall career record. That should cover the short list gamut.

Of course career titles, weeks at number one, year ending number ones, surface versatility, etc., would round it out. But I look at majors (total and versatility), along with career record and titles first.
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #101
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

i think everything is important , for instance some player even despite the fact that didn't complete CGS was very close to it and had decent W/L ratio at the missing Slam , the others was not considered to be a contender at RG or Wimbledon for instance..... It's different situations....

as for evaluating greatness

1) number of Slams
2) versatility (slam on diff surfaces)
3)Runner-Up, SF , it proves more that player was not only winner of several Slams but a contender for other Slams, was in the elite for a period of time.
4) W/L at Slams , W/L in the career
4)Wta Championship titles, Olympic medals
5) Tier 1 titles
6) Total titles
7) Highest ranking
8) weeks at #1
9) H2H vs other great players

when you write down data about 2 players using these tips it's almost always clear who is greater
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 02:46 AM   #102
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

I believe there is no MAIN factor to consider when ranking the greats after Slam Wins.

It's a question that I thought about for a long time... but now I've developed my own method towards comparing all-time greats. Maybe it has its flaws, but I believe it's the best way to do it.

#1 Comes the number of Slam wins. Since I believe it's unfair that Player A with 2 Slams and an "average" career could be ranked above a Player B who might've won only 1 slam but was a top ten player for a long time, reached many Slam finals, etc., I determined that having a 2-slam difference was enough for one player to be above the other. Therefore, if Player A won 6 slams and Player B "only" 5, then A is not better than B, it deserves a further analysis.

#2 Comes a most-detailed analysis, because there is no consensus in the tennis world that "Weeks at No.1", "Years in Top Ten", or "Slam finals" is the second factor to take into account when analysing GOAT-ness.

You might wonder what this analysis is?

Here's a snapshot of an Excel graph I did with it when comparing Mauresmo with Azarenka...

mauresmo azarenka 2.PNG

I think it is a just system, for example, when analysing 3 & 4 Slam winners I got:
Lindsay Davenport
Kim Clijsters
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
Maria Sharapova (might need some updating now, after such a great 2012)
Hana Mandlikova
Jennifer Capriati
Virginia Wade


What do you think of it?

Cheers
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 02:52 AM   #103
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt-TennisFan24 View Post
I believe there is no MAIN factor to consider when ranking the greats after Slam Wins.

It's a question that I thought about for a long time... but now I've developed my own method towards comparing all-time greats. Maybe it has its flaws, but I believe it's the best way to do it.

#1 Comes the number of Slam wins. Since I believe it's unfair that Player A with 2 Slams and an "average" career could be ranked below a Player B who might've won only 1 slam but was a top ten player for a long time, reached many Slam finals, etc., I determined that having a 2-slam difference was enough for one player to be above the other. Therefore, if Player A won 6 slams and Player B "only" 5, then A is not better than B, it deserves a further analysis.

#2 Comes a most-detailed analysis, because there is no consensus in the tennis world that "Weeks at No.1", "Years in Top Ten", or "Slam finals" is the second factor to take into account when analysing GOAT-ness.

You might wonder what this analysis is?

Here's a snapshot of an Excel graph I did with it when comparing Mauresmo with Azarenka...

Attachment 61521

I think it is a just system, for example, when analysing 3 & 4 Slam winners I got:
Lindsay Davenport
Kim Clijsters
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
Maria Sharapova (might need some updating now, after such a great 2012)
Hana Mandlikova
Jennifer Capriati
Virginia Wade


What do you think of it?

Cheers
Sounds about right to me!
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 03:05 AM   #104
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

#1 comes whether or not they won a slam
#2 comes how much I would have liked to do them during their prime

By this system, Gabriela Sabatini is the greatest player of all time. Fair system IMO.
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 03:07 AM   #105
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Re: Most important factors to consider when ranking the greats (after slam count)?

All the indicators have flaws, even slam count. Evert and Navratilova both skipped OZ a few times. Trans-Atlantic travel is so much cheaper and easier. Less white racism, better world wide training means more talented players,so a modern 3-slam winner may have achieved more than a six slam winner 50 years ago.

Weeks-at-#1? No consistent criteria. Who was #1 more weeks? Hingis or Wills-Moody?

My tiebreakers

non-slam singles record
doubles slams
Ever considered the best in the world (not just ranked #1)
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