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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #121
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
What Vika thinks about this won't make much difference one way or another. People who think Serena's the GOAT will continue to think that, and those who don't won't change their opinion based on what someone who wasn't even born when most of the other GOAT contenders were active thinks. It just gives the two sides a renewed excuse to hurl abuse at each other
Its the Graf Fans that are abusive,and even violent as displayed by the crazed Graf Fan who stabbed Seles so Graf could advance. In present times, the same crazed fans of Graf, not as crazed as the stabber, now want to say the stabbing of Seles made no difference. Ha ha ha.. Graf fans are out to lunch!!
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #122
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by SelesGOAT View Post
Which respectable arguments though? Is there a single record she is remotedly close to, since if there is, I am not aware of it. "at her best" isnt really a valid enough argument.
Keep in mind I did say I didn't feel that she was the greatest but that I did feel respectable arguments could be made. The subjective element comes from weighing achievements. Some people might argue that ending the year number 1 has more weight than total weeks at number one- and who is to say which is more meaningful? Serena's overall record at the slams is one of the all time best as is her H2H record against the games greatest. When u say there isn't a single record she's close to, with all due respect being 3 slams away from Evert and Nav is close IMO.

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Some other notable achievements:

-All time longest span of success winning a major 13 years apart (1999 US Open- 2012 US Open). A true sign of longevity!
-By winning 2008 US Open she makes the longest-ever gap between stints at No.1 (five years, one month)
-In 2001 became the first player in tennis history to win the Season-Ending Championships on her debut
-Only player male or female to win a career golden slam in singles and doubles
-At the 1998 Lipton Championships in Miami became the fastest woman in tennis history to record 5 Top 10 wins by defeating Irina Spîrlea in 2nd Round (16 career matches)
-Some have made the argument that because of the increased depth in today's game that her 15 slams is more impressive than Evert's and Navratilova's 18 in their weaker era.
Right now Serena is tied with Steffi as the all time leader in hard-court slams. If Serena can win one more she will be the sports most successful hardcourt player- that's getting ahead of myself though... But to be fair I did say she needs this time to make a stronger case for herself.

Personally I view Steffi as the all time greatest but as I said there is enough accomplished to at least include Serena in the debate- just not enough to give her the crown IMO. I say lets have this conversation again in five years.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 08:05 PM   #123
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit View Post
Keep in mind I did say I didn't feel that she was the greatest but that I did feel respectable arguments could be made. The subjective element comes from weighing achievements. Some people might argue that ending the year number 1 has more weight than total weeks at number one- and who is to say which is more meaningful? Serena's overall record at the slams is one of the all time best as is her H2H record against the games greatest. When u say there isn't a single record she's close to, with all due respect being 3 slams away from Evert and Nav is close IMO.

But 18 Slams isn't even the record
15 Slams isn't very close to 22 or 24 IMO.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #124
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit View Post
Keep in mind I did say I didn't feel that she was the greatest but that I did feel respectable arguments could be made. The subjective element comes from weighing achievements. Some people might argue that ending the year number 1 has more weight than total weeks at number one- and who is to say which is more meaningful? Serena's overall record at the slams is one of the all time best as is her H2H record against the games greatest. When u say there isn't a single record she's close to, with all due respect being 3 slams away from Evert and Nav is close IMO.
3 slams is not close IMO. It is like saying Sharapova's slam total is close to Venus or Henin. Anyway that doesnt even matter since Evert and Navratilova do not hold the slam record, they are only tied for 4th all time in slam wins. So what would being close to Martina and Chris, even if you feel she is, have to do with being close to a record in this case, Martina and Chris hold many prestigious records which is why both are true GOAT canddidates, but most total slams is definitely not one of them, nor one either of them themselves are even close to. Margaret Court holds that particular record, and Serena is a whooping 9 away from that at this point, definitely not close. She is also 7 behind Graf in second place, again definitely not close.


Quote:
Right now Serena is tied with Steffi as the all time leader in hard-court slams. If Serena can win one more she will be the sports most successful hardcourt player- that's getting ahead of myself though... But to be fair I did say she needs this time to make a stronger case for herself.
Only players since 1988 have gotten the chance to play 2 hard court majors. Only players since 1978 have even gotten to play in 1 hard court major. Having won the most slams on hard courts would be Serena's first significant record of any sort, but definitely not one that makes a reasonable case for your being the best ever.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #125
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
But 18 Slams isn't even the record
15 Slams isn't very close to 22 or 24 IMO.
Didnt see that post. I guess we were thinking the same thing.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #126
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
Its the Graf Fans that are abusive,and even violent as displayed by the crazed Graf Fan who stabbed Seles so Graf could advance. In present times, the same crazed fans of Graf, not as crazed as the stabber, now want to say the stabbing of Seles made no difference. Ha ha ha.. Graf fans are out to lunch!!
Why are you so obsessed with Graf in a thread about Serena being the GOAT. Attempting to eliminate Graf does not make Serena's claims any stronger. I agree Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing which would be better served discussing if you wish in a thread specifically about Graf herself, but Graf is not the only one well ahead of Serena in a GOAT debate. Serena has nowhere near the credentials of Navratilova, Evert, Court, Graf, or Wills Moody. She also has nowhere near the dominance of those 5, plus Connolly from 51-54, Lenglen, and is even slightly behind Seles of 91-92. Her career as tremendous as it is has numerous glaring holes, terrible consistency for an all time great, very weak clay performances for an all time great, lack of tournament wins, she has won even less tournaments than Davenport for instance. Your posts in this thread provide no strong argument or reasoning for why anyone should consider Serena even close to being the GOAT. An attempt to eliminate Graf does not do this in anyway, it is the equivalent of Harding clubbing Kerrigan but 6 others were still able to beat her at the Olympics including Kerrigan.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #127
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by SelesGOAT View Post
3 slams is not close IMO. It is like saying Sharapova's slam total is close to Venus or Henin. Anyway that doesnt even matter since Evert and Navratilova do not hold the slam record, they are only tied for 4th all time in slam wins. So what would being close to Martina and Chris, even if you feel she is, have to do with being close to a record in this case, Martina and Chris hold many prestigious records which is why both are true GOAT canddidates, but most total slams is definitely not one of them, nor one either of them themselves are even close to. Margaret Court holds that particular record, and Serena is a whooping 9 away from that at this point, definitely not close. She is also 7 behind Graf in second place, again definitely not close.

Only players since 1988 have gotten the chance to play 2 hard court majors. Only players since 1978 have even gotten to play in 1 hard court major. Having won the most slams on hard courts would be Serena's first significant record of any sort, but definitely not one that makes a reasonable case for your being the best ever.
I was going for an overall general point and instead u focused in on two of the few examples I provided. The heart of what I was trying to say was that until someone clearly defines greatest or gives us an agreeable way to measure it, it's all subjective. You didn't even bother commenting on how Serena holds the record for longest gap between first and last slam. Some could argue that longevity is one of the most important attributes when looking for an all time great. And my point is that u can not say it isn't just because that's a fact that u don't give the same weight as someone else does.

I referenced Martina and Chrisies records because most people concede that Graf and Navrat are the greatest. If there can be an argument for Steffi who Is a few slams behind Court- and if there can be an argument for Navrat who is four slams behind Graf, then there could be an argument for Serena who is three behind Navrat.

Again I have made my position clear three times- I don't think Rena is the games greatest, but I still maintain an argument can be made. Ask yourself why John McEnroe, Azarenka, Clijsters (who has actually played both Steffi and Serena)- even Chris Evert herself said that 'Serena is arguably the Greatest player ever'- ask urself why these people would make such claims. Whether u see it or not arguments are ALREADY being made. That's where we are right NOW. I happen to weigh in on the side that says no, as u do- but that doesn't change the fact that the debate has already begun- like it or not my friend.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #128
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by SelesGOAT View Post
Why are you so obsessed with Graf in a thread about Serena being the GOAT. Attempting to eliminate Graf does not make Serena's claims any stronger. I agree Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing which would be better served discussing if you wish in a thread specifically about Graf herself, but Graf is not the only one well ahead of Serena in a GOAT debate. Serena has nowhere near the credentials of Navratilova, Evert, Court, Graf, or Wills Moody. She also has nowhere near the dominance of those 5, plus Connolly from 51-54, Lenglen, and is even slightly behind Seles of 91-92. Her career as tremendous as it is has numerous glaring holes, terrible consistency for an all time great, very weak clay performances for an all time great, lack of tournament wins, she has won even less tournaments than Davenport for instance. Your posts in this thread provide no strong argument or reasoning for why anyone should consider Serena even close to being the GOAT. An attempt to eliminate Graf does not do this in anyway, it is the equivalent of Harding clubbing Kerrigan but 6 others were still able to beat her at the Olympics including Kerrigan.
For your information, I started a thread "Graf's Slam Count".. they DELETED IT. However, they have a thread on who got the biggest titees/boobs, and it is still going on. Go figure!

For your information again, I didn't bring up Graf, the Graf Tards DID. They do it everytime Serena shines.

For your information again, I am not obsessed, but I do favor the TRUTH.

For you information again, your post, as far as I am concerned, provide nothing but hot air.

For your information again, it is a fact, that a crazed Graf fan(like some of them around here)stabbed Seles, so Graf could advance, win more slams and get the #1 ranking again. The stabber ADMITTED that was his motive, and that is why he stabbed Seles. However, peanut gallery people such as you, claim to know more than the person that did the stabbing. You all claim that the stabbing didn't advance Graf, didn't inflate her slam, count.

Your point isn't even thin, it is dam near invisible. I have all the facts on my side. There was a stabbing. The INTENT of the stabbing is evidence, fact and history. The aftermath of the stabbing is history. You all got big mouths, hot air, and lot of online BS polls..
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #129
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
For your information, I started a thread "Graf's Slam Count".. they DELETED IT. However, they have a thread on who got the biggest titees/boobs, and it is still going on. Go figure!

For your information again, I didn't bring up Graf, the Graf Tards DID. They do it everytime Serena shines.

For your information again, I am not obsessed, but I do favor the TRUTH....blah blah blah blah blah..............................................
What an incredibly stupid post. Nothing about your post addressed anything about my very simple and straightforward question. What single argument even if you eliminate Graf would successfuly make a valid point for Serena being best ever. Is that such a hard question to answer for a Serenatard like yourself. Apparently so as there is no good answer, so beat around the bush with stupid inconsequential points rather than acknowledge it. Atleast some Serena fans in this thread have tried to present a worthy argument, and kept it on topic, apparently something you are unable to do as you have no good arguments that relate to the topic to even present, and it pains you too much that there really is no good argument for Serena being close to GOAT status at this point.

As for your stupid line: You all claim that the stabbing didn't advance Graf, didn't inflate her slam, count. who is this "you all" you are referring to. In my very post I stated: I agree Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing which would be better served discussing if you wish in a thread specifically about Graf herself, but Graf is not the only one well ahead of Serena in a GOAT debate. So obviously I am one of those who does believe Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing, but it also does nothing to improve Serena's non existent GOAT claims. It in fact only pushes Serena further down since if you wish to go into the "what ifs" if Seles was not stabbed, Seles should be placed ahead of Serena in history too, where she would likely be now without the stabbing, pushing Serena yet another spot further down.

Lastly this line from you of all people: You all got big mouths, hot air especialy given your ridiculous and indirect response to a simple question, is the greatest piece of comedy of all.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #130
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit View Post
I was going for an overall general point and instead u focused in on two of the few examples I provided. The heart of what I was trying to say was that until someone clearly defines greatest or gives us an agreeable way to measure it, it's all subjective. You didn't even bother commenting on how Serena holds the record for longest gap between first and last slam. Some could argue that longevity is one of the most important attributes when looking for an all time great. And my point is that u can not say it isn't just because that's a fact that u don't give the same weight as someone else does.

I referenced Martina and Chrisies records because most people concede that Graf and Navrat are the greatest. If there can be an argument for Steffi who Is a few slams behind Court- and if there can be an argument for Navrat who is four slams behind Graf, then there could be an argument for Serena who is three behind Navrat.

Again I have made my position clear three times- I don't think Rena is the games greatest, but I still maintain an argument can be made. Ask yourself why John McEnroe, Azarenka, Clijsters (who has actually played both Steffi and Serena)- even Chris Evert herself said that 'Serena is arguably the Greatest player ever'- ask urself why these people would make such claims. Whether u see it or not arguments are ALREADY being made. That's where we are right NOW. I happen to weigh in on the side that says no, as u do- but that doesn't change the fact that the debate has already begun- like it or not my friend.
Navratilova's 18 slam singles title is not only not even close to a record, but not one of the arguments used for her being the GOAT. In fact if anything it is one of the counter arguments used by those who dont feel she is, especialy when Court has 24, Graf has 22, Evert is tied with her despite missed out on alot of additional Australian and French titles by not playing those events in the 70s back when that was the norm and while she was the defacto dominant player, and considering Wills managed 19 despite never playing the Australian Open. The many argument towards her being the GOAT are her record 9 Wimbledon titles, her 6 Wimbledons in a row, her 6 slams in a row, her unmatched doubles record, her record 167 singles titles, her unmatched 2 year dominance of 83-84, her umatched 5 year dominance of 82-86, her record number of WTA Championships, her epic rivalry and 13 match win streak vs fellow GOAT Chris Evert. Her winning 18 slams is never brought up as to why she is the GOAT, if anything one of the few arguments used against her being it by some. Yet you are saying 15 slams is one of Serena's best arguments as far as achievements for arguably being the GOAT, or an example of a record she is close to. Sorry but no.

By your logic we could say if Serena is possibly the GOAT, then King only being 3 slams behind Serena could be argued as the GOAT just because of her 12 slams (despite that we have now reached the point of being only half of the record, this supposably could now be an argument for King being GOAT).

Now your longest time gap between slams is a valid point and a valid record. That is a good start. I admit you reminded me of that one as I had not thought of it previously. The most hard court slams mark which she should reach would be another, although less of one than the former as the # of greats even eligible for it are very limited to date.
So in other words she is planting the seeds, but she has alot of work to do to make them blossom.

As for the people saying she is GOAT you refer to McEnroe is one of the biggest homers, bandwagoners, and hype blowers in the game today. He even was saying Nadal was the GOAT in the middle of last year but since Djokovic began beating Nadal all those times he has dumped Nadal entirely, and is back on the Federer GOAT bandwagon, even though Nadal since that time has added the same # of slams (1) and many more slam finals to his then resume as Federer has. I am not saying I think Nadal ever was the GOAT, just evidence of how he overhypes the current best (which then was perceived to be Nadal) and jumps from one stance to another. He even tried to argue Venus was the best ever in 2001. He insists Djokovic is the best return of server over Connors and Agassi, all because he can return mostly 110-120 mph serves from a slew of baseliners with mediocre serves today. As for Clijsters and Azarenka they make themselves look better by calling Serena GOAT. Azarenka can be like "oh I am so great, I took the greatest ever deep to a 3rd set, I am one of the best ever too and would win 20 slams in another era". Davenport once tried to argue Venus was the GOAT too, and we all can figure out why.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #131
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

It's fine that she thinks that, but it's obviously not true.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:00 PM   #132
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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I dont think Serena is the greatest ever until she adds more to her current achievements, but I do think she is now the best female player ever. I like to distinguish between the two.
I basically agree, however, If the top players of the past used the same equipmet of today's players I think a few of them would be Serena's equal. Players like: Graf, Court and Navratilova had the size, speed and power to give Serena very stiff competition on faster surfaces. Evert, Graf and Court would dominate Serena on clay. That is why we will ever know if there is a single GOAT.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:06 PM   #133
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by SelesGOAT View Post
What an incredibly stupid post. Nothing about your post addressed anything about my very simple and straightforward question. What single argument even if you eliminate Graf would successfuly make a valid point for Serena being best ever. Is that such a hard question to answer for a Serenatard like yourself. Apparently so as there is no good answer, so beat around the bush with stupid inconsequential points rather than acknowledge it. Atleast some Serena fans in this thread have tried to present a worthy argument, and kept it on topic, apparently something you are unable to do as you have no good arguments that relate to the topic to even present, and it pains you too much that there really is no good argument for Serena being close to GOAT status at this point.

As for your stupid line: You all claim that the stabbing didn't advance Graf, didn't inflate her slam, count. who is this "you all" you are referring to. In my very post I stated: I agree Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing which would be better served discussing if you wish in a thread specifically about Graf herself, but Graf is not the only one well ahead of Serena in a GOAT debate. So obviously I am one of those who does believe Graf benefited from the Seles stabbing, but it also does nothing to improve Serena's non existent GOAT claims. It in fact only pushes Serena further down since if you wish to go into the "what ifs" if Seles was not stabbed, Seles should be placed ahead of Serena in history too, where she would likely be now without the stabbing, pushing Serena yet another spot further down.

Lastly this line from you of all people: You all got big mouths, hot air especialy given your ridiculous and indirect response to a simple question, is the greatest piece of comedy of all.
Your posts is high on the dipchit list!!

First off, you jump on me and say why do I have to bring Graf into this. Whereas, my dog would have read and see that the GRAF fans always insert Graf when people start talking about the greatness of Serena. They come with Graf's inflated Slam Count, and I come back with the truth, and give evidence of how that slam count was inflated, and will be forever tainted.

You call me stupid because I state the motives of the person that stabbed Monica Seles..

Give me a break..
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #134
country flag thrust
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Margreat Court won her first Slam, beating Bueno en route, in 1960 and her last 3 in 1973. If my math is correct, as of now, Serena and Court have the same longevity span in winning slams. Women's tennis was always OPEN, so the open era arguement does NOT apply in this discussion.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:56 PM   #135
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Margreat Court won her first Slam, beating Bueno en route, in 1960 and her last 3 in 1973. If my math is correct, as of now, Serena and Court have the same longevity span in winning slams. Women's tennis was always OPEN, so the open era arguement does NOT apply in this discussion.
That argument does apply because before the open era players played under contract and the terms and conditions of their contract dictated where They could and couldn't play during the year- so it actually wasn't "open". They were essentially controlled by their promoters and many players under contract couldn't play the slams if they were scheduled elsewhere at the time. Most promoters had the players playing in North America during the Australian Open.

It's noted that u and u alone don't make a distinction for the "open era" but u are in the small minority when it comes to that. Every tennis historian and respectable authority in the sport make a distinction between the pro-tours and the Open Era.
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