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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #4351
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
I mentioned how Caro lost to weak-minded,zero-slam-threat BBs like Ana,Goerges and Domi,and YOU cited her match vs. a top player and Slam champion in Petra.Honestly,I could almost excuse such a loss to a Petra or Serena,except Caro was just helpless out there....she had NO ANSWERS,NO PLAN B....and that makes it,again,IRRELEVANT,if it happens every 2 matches or every 6 months.Caro must be better prepared to counterattack power-hitters in those big matches.


So let's be clear that I'm NOT suggesting that Caroline's defense was BAD,per se,but her inability to counterattack in-form power hitters is an achilles heel that will never go away until she takes action to rectify it...it's merely a question of how often it happens.....Gotta run for now,so seeya later
I'm all for Caro trying to improve her offensive arsenal, but I think that people made too much of her losing against the best power hitters when she was number one. Sure, she was helpless against, say, Petra in that Wimbledon match. But that is what happens when one great player plays her best, even when it's a match against another great player. Pundits were just harder on Caroline because they could say, "see, why did we tell you guys? When a BB plays her best a defensive player like Caroline is helpless." And they were right. But when a great player plays her best against a BB, even a great BB - that BB is also helpless. Just ask Sharapova. In short, what happened to Caroline could happen to anyone, including any great player when they face another great player at her best. Chris Evert also had a match where she beat Navratilova 6-0/6-0. But in their case everyone accepts that Chris had a great day and Martina wasn't at her best. When something similar happened to Caroline it's someow supposed to be proof that she was inferior. Having said that, even at her best, and even if she improves her forehand I doubt she'll ever be as great as a, say, Serena, Venus, Hingis or Henin at their best. But there's no shame in that. We can only expect her to maximise her potential and try to be the best possible Caroline Wozniacki. If she maximises her talent she'll continue (or get back) to have a great career, regardless of how it compares with the careers of the greats.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #4352
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I think no matter what the style, great players hate losing, and do everything they can to win.So I see the huge problem is her mental toughness. A full year of this, is a very bad sign going forward..Because we know she has the tools to have better results.Any player can have a loss to Kerber or Radwanska, and Caro is 0-5 vs those two players in 2012.But when a former #1 is losing to Pavlyuchenkova, Begu, Safarova, Mchale, Ivanovic, Kanepi, Paszek, Vinci, Pennetta.Its the combination of clearly being worse than YEC platyers PLUS all the losing to nonYEC players.This is mental weakness, a lot of it. Bad errors at key moments. All the sets she started down 1-5 (3 sets in a row vs Kanepi)We know she used to be capable of better. But maybe this is the best she can do, because her focus isnt strong enough to do better
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #4353
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post


CaroWozniacki
Busy day today! Had a Lego figure made of me and put in Legoland.. pic.twitter.com/6t1moseI
31m


CaroWozniacki
Antalya here we come! @McIlroyRory
13m
The Lego figure Ok, that's a plus for excellent humour ..

But Antalya is a tacky Turkish holiday resort .. Seriously, with all that money between them, they chose a place, which makes Magaluf looks classy

And whytf is she on holiday anyway. Shouldn't she be preparing for Moscow and mini YEC?
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #4354
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Holiday? It's probably some golf nonsense, isn't t?
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #4355
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

It's not holiday, at least not for Rory, he has a tournament to play- "Turkish Airlines World Golf Final" that will feature the world’s top eight golf players
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...rld-golf-final
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:25 AM   #4356
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post
It's not holiday, at least not for Rory, he has a tournament to play- "Turkish Airlines World Golf Final" that will feature the world’s top eight golf players
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...rld-golf-final
Ta! .. so golf watching .. brilliant

(I wonder how long before Caroline signs with Simon Fuller's XIX Entertainment ).
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #4357
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by TennisFan66 View Post
Ta! .. so golf watching .. brilliant

(I wonder how long before Caroline signs with Simon Fuller's XIX Entertainment ).
oh, come on, her season is practically over, plus TA is main sponsor of the event, so maybe they want Caro to be there!
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #4358
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post
oh, come on, her season is practically over, plus TA is main sponsor of the event, so maybe they want Caro to be there!
I was also thinking that. At least this way she'd be able to make up for failing to promote them in Istambul.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #4359
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Her season is practically over? Yeah, I guess that's the kind of work ethic we should go by..

There's always excuses, if she goes to watch golf after a R1 slam loss it's because she needs to take her mind of tennis, or because she's injured or because training wouldn't make any sense or whatever.

The weird thing is, none of the other players are taking joy rides this time of the season. So you really don't have to wonder why she's falling behind the competition. I don't care if it's for a sponsor or not, she does way too much off court stuff like this, especially for a player in her situation. You know who takes jollies at this time of the year? Serena... the difference is, she can afford it, Caroline can not..at least as long as she wants to be seen as a semi-serious tennis player.

The next two tournaments would be a great chance to set her up for 2013 but I guess that's not important enough. Oh well, i'm looking forward to the off season already. Holiday with the golfer, a bunch of useless exhos and no proper coach.. The lack of focus and sense of direction in her career is baffling, especially considering where she has been.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #4360
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
Holiday? It's probably some golf nonsense, isn't t?
As long as there are tennis courts in the neighbourhood where she can practice it shouldn't be a problem. She can't train 24 hours in a day. Whatever she does in her spare time, be-it watching golf, shopping or whatever else doesn't really matter. I think Caroline looked in terrific physical shape in Beijing, so I doubt that being with Rory equals no training.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #4361
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post
oh, come on, her season is practically over, plus TA is main sponsor of the event, so maybe they want Caro to be there!
I am sure TA would want her there ... but, I am sorry, I am personally not impressed.

She could spend the time with TJ (if he's still her trainer of course) or she could go early to next tournament and become acclimatised with the surroundings and the courts.

Instead she plays golfing WAG (again I might add) down in a Turkish holiday resort.

Her name is Caroline Wozniacki. She's a tennis player. She's not Caroline Hilton nor Caroline Khardashian.

PS Actually. I suppose she's more Caroline McIlroy.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #4362
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by TennisFan66 View Post
I am sure TA would want her there ... but, I am sorry, I am personally not impressed.

She could spend the time with TJ (if he's still her trainer of course) or she could go early to next tournament and become acclimatised with the surroundings and the courts.

Instead she plays golfing WAG (again I might add) down in a Turkish holiday resort.

Her name is Caroline Wozniacki. She's a tennis player. She's not Caroline Hilton nor Caroline Khardashian.

PS Actually. I suppose she's more Caroline McIlroy.
Hmm, maybe it's getting to that stage.
I guess golfers have enough cash to afford themselves more than the usual 'standard' in Antalya though. I think that there surely must be some tennis facilities because there's a couple of ITF tournies played there.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 06:21 PM   #4363
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I'm all for Caro trying to improve her offensive arsenal, but I think that people made too much of her losing against the best power hitters when she was number one. Sure, she was helpless against, say, Petra in that Wimbledon match. But that is what happens when one great player plays her best, even when it's a match against another great player. Pundits were just harder on Caroline because they could say, "see, why did we tell you guys? When a BB plays her best a defensive player like Caroline is helpless." And they were right. But when a great player plays her best against a BB, even a great BB - that BB is also helpless. Just ask Sharapova. In short, what happened to Caroline could happen to anyone, including any great player when they face another great player at her best. Chris Evert also had a match where she beat Navratilova 6-0/6-0. But in their case everyone accepts that Chris had a great day and Martina wasn't at her best. When something similar happened to Caroline it's someow supposed to be proof that she was inferior. Having said that, even at her best, and even if she improves her forehand I doubt she'll ever be as great as a, say, Serena, Venus, Hingis or Henin at their best. But there's no shame in that. We can only expect her to maximise her potential and try to be the best possible Caroline Wozniacki. If she maximises her talent she'll continue (or get back) to have a great career, regardless of how it compares with the careers of the greats.
The one major flaw in your arguments is that it--non-competitive losses such as the one to Petra--happens to Caroline much more often than it ever did to Navrat...that double bagel loss to Evert was a MEGA fluke,and I'll bet you that it happened BEFORE Martina became such a mentally tough player.In your defense,if Caroline isn't on the same level with the greats(as you seem to imply),then that would totally justify why she had far lesser results.
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Old Oct 9th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #4364
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I'm probably taking your post out of context, so I apologies if I am. You make some interesting points but there are a few holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
A couple highly-flawed arguments I've been seeing:
1.Because Caro didn't get overpowered very often,that somehow proves that it was nearly impossible to do;quite frankly,that's absurd b--lshit! It's true that she was/is talented,and that made it DIFFICULT for BB opponents,but it was FAR from 'nearly impossible'.It didn't happen that much in part because of Caro's skill...and also b/c BBs,by their nature,tend to be erratic,impatient and inconsistent.The problem was when they WEREN'T exhibiting those negative traits,Caroline had no recourse or way to counterattack.
I think you're underestimating the form and moral driven element of a defensive strategy. It requires extreme confidence and focus to pull off, and much more so than a simpler BB game. Further the way you phrase the bold part is suggestive of control being with the BB, which isn't quite true. Attack means very little if it isn't effective, and in a defensive strategy the key is to rendering your opponents attack ineffective. It's as much about denying a normally winning strategy from your opponent, and tactically forcing them to try approaches beyond their usual comfort zone. Typically that involves feeding variety of weight and length and denying their game with basic placement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
2.To paraphrase,Petra was so flawless the day she destroyed Caroline that she would have beaten ANYone the same way....More B--lshit!People here are trying to rationalize Caro's helplessness by pretending that Petra was some unstoppable cyborg,as if a mere mortal were fighting hand-to-hand with the Terminator character.Now I'M a Petra fan who celebrates her successes,but it's ridiculous to assert that she would've won with the same scoreline vs. Graf,Henin,Court,Evert or one of the WS.Not only would the match have been closer,PETRA MIGHT NOT HAVE WON,PERIOD!These greats I listed knew how to use a power-hitter's pace against her,and it's no wild speculation that one of them could have demoralized Petra by withstanding her best shots and counterattacking.Caro simply lacked the capability to do that
If we are talking about wimbledon? Lack of traction and thus court speed to get balls back, combined with great placement and low bounces, will beat Caroline. As for the other comparisons, they are all very subjective, but I think it would be wrong to over estimate other opponents chances that day, especially Nav and Co. The pace of the ball has radically changed. Truth is nobody knows, and since the balls and courts have changed yet again since that day, nobody ever will. I was a huge fan of the old girls, and unfortunately the game has changed beyond recognition to a less entertaining form where sadly the old skill sets are largely irrelevant.

Quote:
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3.The final B.S.: Because it didn't happen too frequently,there was an almost flukish element to the wipeouts vs. BBs,so it didn't require any adjustments.Comparing those losses to,let's say,Serena's loss to Razzano,is a poor analogy.Serena lost largely b/c she just didn't play very well that day(and we'll give Razzano credit for playing decently,too);it WASN'T due to any specific flaw in her style of play.It's asinine to suggest that Caroline shouldn't have worked on her inability to counterattack merely b/c she wasn't exploited that much.Compare her style to a car that's easy to rob....like many Nissans,for example.The reality that they are easy to steal is an unavoidable,negative aspect of those cars;if you're fortunate enough that you NEVER have to park in an area where car theft is common or a risk,THAT'S GREAT!...but that does nothing to change the truth that the car likely WILL get stolen if you DO have to park in an urban area or any place where theft is more common.It's a design flaw in the car,and it doesn't disappear or diminish one iota just because you were lucky enough to NOT get the car stolen over,say,a 6-month period.
Caroline's game has always been in adjustment. evolving, changing, and some of your examples should reflect the specific changes made prior to the losses. Caroline's strategy also changes from match to match, and in match. You lay out a strategy and some times it's wrong and gets exposed. That's different to a loss while having a working strategy but you hit that mental wall and panic, and again different to a loss with a strategy thats hamstrung by a technical (equipment) or physical fault (injury). I'm not sure why you suggest Caroline wasn't able to counter attack? She had one of the best disguised killer BH's out there, second to only to Kim at its peak.

Btw. Car analogies never work, and considering most theft is now with the owners keys also moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
In closing,I'll agree again with everyone who asserts that Caroline's defensive level has dropped off...and that she shouldn't have neglected her defensive prowess just to get more aggressive.That was poor training/preparation on her part.However,I'm not going to play Revisionist History and pretend that the old flaws didn't exist merely because her remedy was so poorly implemented.There's no reason WHATSOEVER to suggest that,w/o tweaking in a few needed elements,Caroline would've broken thru at a Slam any more than Dinara did.In fact,Caro had LESS success than Dinara at Slams despite being a more mentally stable character...and,of course,I'm referring to Caro's peak period with the previous style of play
I have seen elements of her old defence recently. Her physique is much lighter and faster than it was for a long time while doing (probably too much) boxer training. She needs court speed and strokes she can trust to play her game. I think Caroline could have broken through, but it didn't work out that way and the pressure to do so just rises with attempts. She had a similar "wall" at PM's that once she finally did break through, she went on a rampant streak of winning them. Her confidence obviously plays a huge part in her game, and she will need strokes that she has 100% confidence in to take the step back to the top for another try.

I can't really comment on Dinara, except that she has a lot of explaining to do.

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Old Oct 10th, 2012, 01:15 AM   #4365
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burisleif View Post
I'm probably taking your post out of context, so I apologies if I am. You make some interesting points but there are a few holes.

I think you're underestimating the form and moral driven element of a defensive strategy. It requires extreme confidence and focus to pull off, and much more so than a simpler BB game. Further the way you phrase the bold part is suggestive of control being with the BB, which isn't quite true. Attack means very little if it isn't effective, and in a defensive strategy the key is to rendering your opponents attack ineffective. It's as much about denying a normally winning strategy from your opponent, and tactically forcing them to try approaches beyond their usual comfort zone. Typically that involves feeding variety of weight and length and denying their game with basic placement.

If we are talking about wimbledon? Lack of traction and thus court speed to get balls back, combined with great placement and low bounces, will beat Caroline. As for the other comparisons, they are all very subjective, but I think it would be wrong to over estimate other opponents chances that day, especially Nav and Co. The pace of the ball has radically changed. Truth is nobody knows, and since the balls and courts have changed yet again since that day, nobody ever will. I was a huge fan of the old girls, and unfortunately the game has changed beyond recognition to a less entertaining form where sadly the old skill sets are largely irrelevant.

Caroline's game has always been in adjustment. evolving, changing, and some of your examples should reflect the specific changes made prior to the losses. Caroline's strategy also changes from match to match, and in match. You lay out a strategy and some times it's wrong and gets exposed. That's different to a loss while having a working strategy but you hit that mental wall and panic, and again different to a loss with a strategy thats hamstrung by a technical (equipment) or physical fault (injury). I'm not sure why you suggest Caroline wasn't able to counter attack? She had one of the best disguised killer BH's out there, second to only to Kim at its peak.

Btw. Car analogies never work, and considering most theft is now with the owners keys also moot.



I have seen elements of her old defence recently. Her physique is much lighter and faster than it was for a long time while doing (probably too much) boxer training. She needs court speed and strokes she can trust to play her game. I think Caroline could have broken through, but it didn't work out that way and the pressure to do so just rises with attempts. She had a similar "wall" at PM's that once she finally did break through, she went on a rampant streak of winning them. Her confidence obviously plays a huge part in her game, and she will need strokes that she has 100% confidence in to take the step back to the top for another try.

I can't really comment on Dinara, except that she has a lot of explaining to do.

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Back on topic, bitch away cave dwellers...
You make lots of worthy points but there's only one that requires any clarification from me.

Indeed,Caroline's old BH is a very nice defensive shot but,to be truly well-rounded,an elite player must use both hands effectively,and I think that her FH falls too far short of where her peak BH was.Keep in mind that I'm choosing to compare Caro to all-time greats b/c I'm optimistic about her potential due to her long stint at #1.Even when you factor in some of the unacceptable losses that I mentioned,Caroline was still an excellent defensive player who even clearly outdid other players who were known for their defense.

You offer a decent description of defensive strategies,but there's one element of this style of play where Caroline wasn't quite what she SHOULD have been,even while at the top of the rankings,and that was turning around deep,accurate laser shots by using her opponent's pace against her....Obviously,the FH side was more deficient in this respect.It doesn't bother me all that much that Caro might get hit off the court by an elite power-hitter,yet it's another story entirely if that happens vs.,say,Lisicki or Ana,and an embarrassing loss isn't necessarily one that displays a lopsided scoreline;one could also categorize,as such,a loss where the inferior player was significantly in control of the match...even if the final score were merely 6-4,6-3.As we all know,a player who feels she's in control will sometimes coast and conserve energy on an opponent's serve,thinking that she could break it whenever she wanted,thus making the match superficially appear more competitive than it actually was.

Let's take Henin as an ideal example;I can't recall any matches when she was simply annihilated by a mindless,one-dimensional BB.If it DID happen,it sure was a once-in-a-blue-moon event;Justine was usually quite competitive even when one of the WS was in GOAT mode.If she faced one of the mental weaklings like those listed above,yeah,she'd lose a few points here and there when the BB smacked a powerful winner right past her.For the most part,though,she'd learned how to counterstrike by feeding off her foe's pace,demoralizing her opponent by getting those 'impossible' shots back until the mental weakling's level dropped off from despair.Against a normal player,the BB would've won 6-0,6-2 and elicited slobbering praise from mostly male,quasi-pubescent tennis reporters,such as Cronin,on how she was destined to be a Slam juggernaut,and the losing player's fans would trot out the same old blah blah B.S. about how the BB was supposedly unstoppable that day......but,versus Henin,she wouldn't win AT ALL(likely not even a set),let alone 6-0,6-2.

I'll re-iterate that I'm comparing Caro to all-time greats due to what she showed me at her peak;hypothetically,though,my judgment could be unfairly biased by my fanship.Losing to lower-ranked players,regardless of style of play,isn't such an awful shortcoming.Getting blown off the court by one certainly IS,and I feel that Caroline at least had to learn how to counterattack by using pace even against difficult laser shots.It's the methods by which she tried to implement aggression that have raised eyebrows,and I can understand some of the skepticism that fans have shown here
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