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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #4336
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
The only problem with the above is that Caro's defense WASN'T that solid always;she was vulnerable to getting overpowered and smacked off the court even by limited BBs.Even if it didn't happen constantly,it's unacceptable for an elite player to be helpless against a fringe Top 20 player.
This was the theory and was generally accepted as one of the ways you could beat Caro when she was beating almost everyone she played and had won 10 tournaments in 12 months. That you could beat Caro by blasting her off the court. And yes it was true in theory. The problem with that theory is that it rarely actually happened. If it was so simple - then why wasn't it regularly happening. I'm talking in particular about that 12 month stretch where she won 10 tournaments between Wimbledon 2010 - Wimbledon 2011.

We all know the most famous match where she was blasted off the court. Against Petra at Wimbledon 2010. The next 12 months - the best she played - I can't recall her being blasted off the court like that. She had losses - particluarly thinking of Kim, Vera and Li. But she had chances those matches and they were nothing like that Petra loss.

It was the theory you could beat her by doing a Petra - but it didn't happen. And the reason was that they could overpower her for a few games. But it's a totally different proposition to play lights out for a whole match agains a player who was as good as Caro was then and who in addition gifted you no free points.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:33 PM   #4337
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
This was the theory and was generally accepted as one of the ways you could beat Caro when she was beating almost everyone she played and had won 10 tournaments in 12 months. That you could beat Caro by blasting her off the court. And yes it was true in theory. The problem with that theory is that it rarely actually happened. If it was so simple - then why wasn't it regularly happening. I'm talking in particular about that 12 month stretch where she won 10 tournaments between Wimbledon 2010 - Wimbledon 2011.

We all know the most famous match where she was blasted off the court. Against Petra at Wimbledon 2010. The next 12 months - the best she played - I can't recall her being blasted off the court like that. She had losses - particluarly thinking of Kim, Vera and Li. But she had chances those matches and they were nothing like that Petra loss.

It was the theory you could beat her by doing a Petra - but it didn't happen. And the reason was that they could overpower her for a few games. But it's a totally different proposition to play lights out for a whole match agains a player who was as good as Caro was then and who in addition gifted you no free points.
This was a very articulate post,Terjw...but it was largely completely irrelevant.

I mentioned how Caro lost to weak-minded,zero-slam-threat BBs like Ana,Goerges and Domi,and YOU cited her match vs. a top player and Slam champion in Petra.Honestly,I could almost excuse such a loss to a Petra or Serena,except Caro was just helpless out there....she had NO ANSWERS,NO PLAN B....and that makes it,again,IRRELEVANT,if it happens every 2 matches or every 6 months.Caro must be better prepared to counterattack power-hitters in those big matches.

What you totally failed to address were the losses to the lesser players;obviously,it couldn't be THAT easy to knock Caro off the court or she wouldn't have been #1 for a year...so it was POINTLESS for you to bring that up.The problem is that it DOES happen,and it happens against inferior players that a #1 MIGHT lose to on fluke occasions...but NOT so easily.I can't even recall ONE match where Graf,Henin,ASV,Davenport or one of the WS was smacked all over the court defenselessly by such an inferior player...and,if it DID happen,it did so only once or twice in their entire careers...not three or more times in one season.

So let's be clear that I'm NOT suggesting that Caroline's defense was BAD,per se,but her inability to counterattack in-form power hitters is an achilles heel that will never go away until she takes action to rectify it...it's merely a question of how often it happens.....Gotta run for now,so seeya later
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #4338
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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I think Turkish airlines are not happy at all, she'll be basically advertising their competitor. On the other hand, if she wins another title that can only help her (and their) publicity.
I am also very curious about what way will she be heading playing-wise. If she watched todays final between Azarenka & Sharapova she'd probably regret abandoning her great defensive play. I think 2013 will be again about changes, at this point they probably have a lot to fix.
Here's hoping that Caro will once again become the old Caroline, who beat her opponents thanks to a rock-solid defense.
Defense is what she did best. So when she's trying to improve, why does she stop doing the part of tennis she does best?
To me, thats the difficult part to understand.
Of course she wants to improve her serve, volley, forehand, but if she's not a steady, consistent, defensive player, then what is she?

Its a full year later and I still dont see where she's headed to, as a reckless, sloppy player, who makes unforced errors at key moments, match after match
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #4339
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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This was a very articulate post,Terjw...but it was largely completely irrelevant.

I mentioned how Caro lost to weak-minded,zero-slam-threat BBs like Ana,Goerges and Domi,and YOU cited her match vs. a top player and Slam champion in Petra.Honestly,I could almost excuse such a loss to a Petra or Serena,except Caro was just helpless out there....she had NO ANSWERS,NO PLAN B....and that makes it,again,IRRELEVANT,if it happens every 2 matches or every 6 months.Caro must be better prepared to counterattack power-hitters in those big matches.

What you totally failed to address were the losses to the lesser players;obviously,it couldn't be THAT easy to knock Caro off the court or she wouldn't have been #1 for a year...so it was POINTLESS for you to bring that up.The problem is that it DOES happen,and it happens against inferior players that a #1 MIGHT lose to on fluke occasions...but NOT so easily.I can't even recall ONE match where Graf,Henin,ASV,Davenport or one of the WS was smacked all over the court defenselessly by such an inferior player...and,if it DID happen,it did so only once or twice in their entire careers...not three or more times in one season.

So let's be clear that I'm NOT suggesting that Caroline's defense was BAD,per se,but her inability to counterattack in-form power hitters is an achilles heel that will never go away until she takes action to rectify it...it's merely a question of how often it happens.....Gotta run for now,so seeya later
Caro did not lose to Ana let alone get smacked off the court during the period I quoted and even this year she beat Ana on their first encounter.I thought I was clear that I was not talking about the Caro now who makes far more UEs and is not the best defensive player in the world.

As for Georges - I don't think her two losses during the period I was talking about - not 2012 - were due to her being vulnerable to a ball-basher hitting her off the court. What I do think is that her forehand broke down though. Even then - one match was a 3-setter and the other was 7-6 6-3. I actually think that she'd started her decline then. The only tournaments she won since then are Brussels, Copenhagen, New Haven and Seoul - no big tournaments like she was doing. Dani at RG I didn't see. Also - all these matches were on the red dirt which she doesn't really play well on and were at the start of her decline.

As for comparing Caro with Graf, Henin. WS etc. - well who's comparing Caro to these all time greats. I'm not and never have done.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #4340
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I just checked out the ranking and saw that Caro's just a mere 500 points ahead of Ivanovic.

We always feared that she would be looking at a Ivanovic-type career and it looks like she's getting dramatically close to that.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #4341
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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I just checked out the ranking and saw that Caro's just a mere 500 points ahead of Ivanovic.

We always feared that she would be looking at a Ivanovic-type career and it looks like she's getting dramatically close to that.
The big points come from playing in big matches. When you lose a lot in round 1, and only win semis at Intl's (nothing above that), you're going to be where Caro is at.
She has about 1/3 as many points as Vika in the rankings.
Thats her level the last 12 months.

I think we'll know pretty early next year where her game is at. AO could be where she starts to come back, or her 4th straight week 1 loss at a major
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #4342
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
I just checked out the ranking and saw that Caro's just a mere 500 points ahead of Ivanovic.

We always feared that she would be looking at a Ivanovic-type career and it looks like she's getting dramatically close to that.
As the resident optimist I feel obligated to point out that Caroline still has awfully far to fall before that comparison is accurate. Didn't Ana's ranking fall as low as somewhere in the sixties? I do see your point, right now in terms of points/ranking they are pretty much level but we can cling to the fact that Caroline has not yet sunk to the lows that Ana did. The worrying thing is that she has yet to stabilise her ranking, she has been in freefall all season and we don't know if she has hit the bottom yet. An early loss in Melbourne could send her out of the top fifteen.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #4343
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Caro did not lose to Ana let alone get smacked off the court during the period I quoted and even this year she beat Ana on their first encounter.I thought I was clear that I was not talking about the Caro now who makes far more UEs and is not the best defensive player in the world.

As for Georges - I don't think her two losses during the period I was talking about - not 2012 - were due to her being vulnerable to a ball-basher hitting her off the court. What I do think is that her forehand broke down though. Even then - one match was a 3-setter and the other was 7-6 6-3. I actually think that she'd started her decline then. The only tournaments she won since then are Brussels, Copenhagen, New Haven and Seoul - no big tournaments like she was doing. Dani at RG I didn't see. Also - all these matches were on the red dirt which she doesn't really play well on and were at the start of her decline.

As for comparing Caro with Graf, Henin. WS etc. - well who's comparing Caro to these all time greats. I'm not and never have done.
As for the last part,I'M comparing Caroline to those greats b/c she matched them with her long run at #1 and she has the potential to match them,at least somewhat,in terms of slam results.

We can debate as to WHY and WHEN Caro lost to Brainless BBs,but the fact is she HAS done so...even in her peak period...in embarrassing fashion,and those are losses that are unworthy of a world #1.There are both Caro fans and fair,neutral types who will attest to that.Top players learn how to counterattack and use their opponent's pace against them and,if they DO get hit off the court on rare occasions,it's only vs. another elite player who's in GOAT form.I conceded that it didn't happen constantly,yet that doesn't change the fact that it was/is an achilles heel that was destined to be exploited at an inopportune time.

I'll agree with you and others who state that Caroline shouldn't have sought to improve her aggressiveness at the expense of her defensive prowess.I don't see why the two elements should be mutually exclusive and she erred badly in allowing her defense to slide
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 06:08 AM   #4344
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Defense is what she did best. So when she's trying to improve, why does she stop doing the part of tennis she does best?
To me, thats the difficult part to understand.
Of course she wants to improve her serve, volley, forehand, but if she's not a steady, consistent, defensive player, then what is she?

Its a full year later and I still dont see where she's headed to, as a reckless, sloppy player, who makes unforced errors at key moments, match after match
This. Well said.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #4345
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
This was the theory and was generally accepted as one of the ways you could beat Caro when she was beating almost everyone she played and had won 10 tournaments in 12 months. That you could beat Caro by blasting her off the court. And yes it was true in theory. The problem with that theory is that it rarely actually happened. If it was so simple - then why wasn't it regularly happening. I'm talking in particular about that 12 month stretch where she won 10 tournaments between Wimbledon 2010 - Wimbledon 2011.

We all know the most famous match where she was blasted off the court. Against Petra at Wimbledon 2010. The next 12 months - the best she played - I can't recall her being blasted off the court like that. She had losses - particluarly thinking of Kim, Vera and Li. But she had chances those matches and they were nothing like that Petra loss.

It was the theory you could beat her by doing a Petra - but it didn't happen. And the reason was that they could overpower her for a few games. But it's a totally different proposition to play lights out for a whole match agains a player who was as good as Caro was then and who in addition gifted you no free points.
Yes, it was one of the cliches about her old game IMO just like claims that she was always winning by luck because her opponent was sick/injured etc.
In reality she was hard to beat and the few times she lost it was when her opponent managed to be flawless and hit a high number of winners. And let's be honest, that didn't very happen often because she was good at working out their weaknesses and knew how to make them commit an error. She did have some freak losses just like the one against Petra but that happens to every player. Should Serena change her game because of a loss to Razzano? Don't think so.

Right now it's easier to beat Caro because she is gifting her opponents many points with UEs. Ironic as it is, I noticed that they are now using the same strategy as she used to to beat them - just keep the rally going and wait for her errors. And they always come.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #4346
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I watched the Caro match this week and I have to agree. In the 1st set she was quite agressive, but missfired everything with her forehand. In the 2nd set she served better and hit some good shots, her ball went in and she was the dominating player, even though Kerber kind of mentally checked out.

The decisive set was pretty even with actions and errors from both of them.

Yep, Caro needs a proper game plan and not the alibi tennis she is playing now + she really seems to run into players when they are at their peak (Paszek, Begu etc.)

if you compare her game to the one that was working no later than one year ago the BH is more or less the same and the serve goes faster. They tried to flat her FH and now she just hits slightly harder than before, but barely ever deeper than the serviceline, almost as an absurd she was much more dangerous with her old loopy and really deep slow FH, than now with that wannabe aggressive shot, since the first was hard to be hit standing close to the baseline, the latter is just the perfect shot to sit on and hit over. Just my idea...
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #4347
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Caroline must be in Moscow by now. Preparing and training hard for her next tournament

Can anyone confirm?
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #4348
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

A couple highly-flawed arguments I've been seeing:
1.Because Caro didn't get overpowered very often,that somehow proves that it was nearly impossible to do;quite frankly,that's absurd b--lshit! It's true that she was/is talented,and that made it DIFFICULT for BB opponents,but it was FAR from 'nearly impossible'.It didn't happen that much in part because of Caro's skill...and also b/c BBs,by their nature,tend to be erratic,impatient and inconsistent.The problem was when they WEREN'T exhibiting those negative traits,Caroline had no recourse or way to counterattack.

2.To paraphrase,Petra was so flawless the day she destroyed Caroline that she would have beaten ANYone the same way....More B--lshit!People here are trying to rationalize Caro's helplessness by pretending that Petra was some unstoppable cyborg,as if a mere mortal were fighting hand-to-hand with the Terminator character.Now I'M a Petra fan who celebrates her successes,but it's ridiculous to assert that she would've won with the same scoreline vs. Graf,Henin,Court,Evert or one of the WS.Not only would the match have been closer,PETRA MIGHT NOT HAVE WON,PERIOD!These greats I listed knew how to use a power-hitter's pace against her,and it's no wild speculation that one of them could have demoralized Petra by withstanding her best shots and counterattacking.Caro simply lacked the capability to do that

3.The final B.S.: Because it didn't happen too frequently,there was an almost flukish element to the wipeouts vs. BBs,so it didn't require any adjustments.Comparing those losses to,let's say,Serena's loss to Razzano,is a poor analogy.Serena lost largely b/c she just didn't play very well that day(and we'll give Razzano credit for playing decently,too);it WASN'T due to any specific flaw in her style of play.It's asinine to suggest that Caroline shouldn't have worked on her inability to counterattack merely b/c she wasn't exploited that much.Compare her style to a car that's easy to rob....like many Nissans,for example.The reality that they are easy to steal is an unavoidable,negative aspect of those cars;if you're fortunate enough that you NEVER have to park in an area where car theft is common or a risk,THAT'S GREAT!...but that does nothing to change the truth that the car likely WILL get stolen if you DO have to park in an urban area or any place where theft is more common.It's a design flaw in the car,and it doesn't disappear or diminish one iota just because you were lucky enough to NOT get the car stolen over,say,a 6-month period.

In closing,I'll agree again with everyone who asserts that Caroline's defensive level has dropped off...and that she shouldn't have neglected her defensive prowess just to get more aggressive.That was poor training/preparation on her part.However,I'm not going to play Revisionist History and pretend that the old flaws didn't exist merely because her remedy was so poorly implemented.There's no reason WHATSOEVER to suggest that,w/o tweaking in a few needed elements,Caroline would've broken thru at a Slam any more than Dinara did.In fact,Caro had LESS success than Dinara at Slams despite being a more mentally stable character...and,of course,I'm referring to Caro's peak period with the previous style of play
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:40 AM   #4349
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Caroline must be in Moscow by now. Preparing and training hard for her next tournament

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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #4350
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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