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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #4306
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Well, I don't think that anyone, not even the biggest supporters of Sanchez or TJ think that she should drastically change what in the past has been a winning formula for her. But everyone always works on certain aspects of their game and tries to improve whatever weakness they have. Radwanska has improved her serve and offensive game over the last year or so, Sharapova moves around the court much better than she used to in the past, Nadal has improved his serve - even Federer now makes use of the dropshot much more than he did in the previous decade. I don't see why Caroline shouldn't try to add to her game as well, just like everyone else does.

The idea that she should improve her forehand in particular sounds logical to me. And as we can see it's clearly a better shot when she steps into it and takes it on. True, it might result in a few more UE, but what's the difference between making an UE yourself and putting a ball halfway up the court that the opponent will just put away? At the very least Caroline should be able to put away halfcourt balls herself with that forehand instead of giving her opponent still a play on the ball. Every other top player can do that, even the ones that are not power hitters.
Sure, players are trying to improve the weaknesses all the time and 'add to their games'. From what Sanchez and now TJ is saying they tried to change her approach and make her play aggressively so I imagine that involved making significant changes to the way she plays and maybe also thinks on the court
Oh well,the intentions were good but still...
Anyway, now it's too late to lament about that. Hopefully they'll be wiser with developing her game next season.
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #4307
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

If Caro doesnt play at the YEC, she probably has a shot at 2 more titles this year.
She wont be playing the top 8 and a lot of the players still left are worn out & looking forward to offseason
I still think she has to go after every win she can.
This slump is self inflicted. Nobody else falls apart because they're trying to improve, maybe just Jankovic. But Jelena was older and maybe worn down.

Caroline didnt have a major injury. Nothing seriously bad happened, where she has some reason to fall far off the top.

So I still say she needs wins and to keep playing. To get into that 2010-11 flow where she expects to win all week, not watch golf or vacation for months
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #4308
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Is Caroline still playing Moscow? Bartoli has basically qualified for the alternate spot by winning Beijing QF. I'd like Caroline to win Sofia then call it a year.
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 08:26 PM   #4309
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
If she plays aggressively she might never win a slam neither. Her slam results this year, when she tried to be play more attacking tennis, are nothing to be thrilled about.
Also, WTA events are not small peripheral tournaments. WTA tour is a highest level in pro competition.
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Exactly,with the old style she was doing well at all kind of events which shows that was a way forward. There's no guarantee that it would win her a slam and at the same time there's no guarantee it wouldn't. Waiting for opponents errors may be seen as inferior style to some but the results of players who opt for it show that this style also works.
Caro is a good example of that. She won some really tough battles thanks to opponents UEs. She did slip at slams,true,but was definitely closer to the victories than she's now, when she tries to hit winners.

If she kept on playing the old way she'd have a much better 2012 and, who knows, maybe would succeed at slams,too.
But now it's kind of back to square one.
In general I don't think her slam losses this year were the result of aggressive play. She made her 2nd set comeback against Kim at the Australian Open by getting more aggressive and did the same against Kanepi at the French only to return to a more defensive style in in the 3rd set. I think Caro backed off some at key moments at Wimbledon against Paszek and her serve wasn't as effective as it usually is on grass. The US Open loss at Begu was a horrible mess brought on in large measure by the physical and mental effects of her injury.

Caro could win the majority of her matches by waiting for errors but sometimes her opponents don't make lots of errors, particularly top players. It's also hard to beat other good defenders with a defensive style. That's why I think she needs to able to play some form of more aggressive tennis in those situations.

I think confidence and focus issues would have dragged her down some even if she didn't try to change her game. There's also more players trying to play her patiently and not just blast a winner right away which she'd have to adjust to. Plus some of the players Caro used to beat have improved a good deal.
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #4310
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Protoss View Post
In general I don't think her slam losses this year were the result of aggressive play. ...I think confidence and focus issues would have dragged her down some even if she didn't try to change her game. ....
The chicken or the egg. Which came first?Did confidence issues come from changing her style, or was she about to fall down the rankings anyway?We will never know. Since Wimbledon 2011, when she held 9 titles, she has 2 losses to Mchale, 2 to Kanepi, losses to Vinci, Safarova, Begu, Pavlyuchenkova, Ivanovic, Paszek.They all got better than Caro was at #1?.....I tend to think not..
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #4311
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Caro was up a break in the 3rd vs Kim in the YEC final in 2010. At that time, from summer of 2010 to spring of 2011, only Caro & Kim won everything above Tier 2, and this one time they played during those 9 months, it was very close.
Plus Caro is a lot younger than Kimwith much more career in front of her.
So I disagree that she was a weak slam finalist.
I do think now, there's avery good chance that will be her only slam final, only YEC final.
But thats up to Caro. Its her career
You're dodging the issue;being up a break on a great player is practically NOTHING!!Kim,Henin,Serena&Venus,even Masha,can overcome even a TWO-break deficit when they're locked in.Your weak,isolated example doesn't hold up to the many other occasions when she couldn't take control of a Slam match.Once again,Caroline never threatened Kim at all in that 2009 USO final,and she wasn't even terribly competitive against Bepa in the 2010 semis...and most people would agree that Vera was an almost ideal SF Slam opponent when compared with other gals...nor do we have any reason whatsoever to think she could have taken that 2011 AO final,either.

Okay,maybe it's harsh to call Caro 'weak'--and I never actually said that--but she had that glaring flaw in her game that required UEs from her opponent and,typically,someone who reaches a QF or SF at a Slam is in relatively good form,unlikely to make many errors.Caro's lack of attacking weapons or strong serve left her unable to finish off points...one of YOUR biggest gripes...and,logically,she couldn't finish off tougher opponents,either.

We could sit here all day and argue 'my opinion,your opinion',so I'll simplify by challenging you to find ANY respected tennis authority--though you'd have more credibility if you found more than a mere ONE--who felt that Caroline was a legit threat to win RG or Wimby.Obviously,she did better at the AO and USO,but we saw where Vika came truly close to knocking off Serena at this last USO;with better serving,she would have been able to close SW out as Stosur easily did the year prior.Are you REALLY going to assert that Caroline's passive style could've brought her to the brink of beating Serena in that Slam final??If you believed THAT,then you'd probably accept that the pope was infallible and personally chosen by God.

Again,I'm not gonna justify the lousy manner in which she and her team implemented the new aggressive game,but it's sad revisionist history to pretend that Caro was THIS close when she was no closer than my sweet,chaotic Dinara was...as in,'not very'.I fully agree with you,though,that this next year will be make-or-break for Caro's hopes of returning to the elite rankings
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #4312
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I think its always going to be debatable, but I thought Caro was playing at a very high level at Tokyo, Beijing, YEC 2010. She beat Azarenka, Dementieva, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Kvitova, Schiavone. Was very close in the YEC final vs Kim.I thought the same in the spring of 2011. Dubai, IW...I thought her level of play at IW would win majors. Back then I thought the problem at majors was mental. She just needed 1 decent 1st serve to close out Li. Maybe she shouldnt play New Haven and was worn down against Vera in 2010 USO SF, played in the wind.But I thought Caro could beat everyone on tour but Serena & Kim. No one else could beat them either. Caro's a lot younger...But now she is so far from that. When you read AO previews, they wont even mention Caro. She's made herself a non contender at slams. She is more of a golf watcher during majors
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 05:10 AM   #4313
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I think its always going to be debatable, but I thought Caro was playing at a very high level at Tokyo, Beijing, YEC 2010. She beat Azarenka, Dementieva, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Kvitova, Schiavone. Was very close in the YEC final vs Kim.I thought the same in the spring of 2011. Dubai, IW...I thought her level of play at IW would win majors. Back then I thought the problem at majors was mental. She just needed 1 decent 1st serve to close out Li. Maybe she shouldnt play New Haven and was worn down against Vera in 2010 USO SF, played in the wind.But I thought Caro could beat everyone on tour but Serena & Kim. No one else could beat them either. Caro's a lot younger...But now she is so far from that. When you read AO previews, they wont even mention Caro. She's made herself a non contender at slams. She is more of a golf watcher during majors
Well,Caro WAS at a high level...and still IS at a high level when you consider that she's superior to 99.9% of female tennis players on the planet...but the evidence doesn't support your inaccurate reveries of a Caro who was supposedly on the brink of winning a Slam.Do you remember how you dismissed Caro's win over Serena as meaningless??Then why would you turn around and cite victories over the players you list above when our Sunshine wasn't able to get it done when it mattered most?There's a difference in beating someone at a Premier and doing it at a Slam,where a few of those aforementioned players dominated Caroline.THEY raised their levels even higher for the biggest events,and Caroline was powerless to stop them without a strong serve or attacking weapons that might throw them off their games.The wind and fatigue excuses for her loss to Vera are simply lame when you own up to the fact that BOTH players deal with the wind...and Caro looked plenty fresh at YEC a couple months later.

Let's take a look at the cold,hard truth of Caroline's slam results from USO 2009 to YEC 2011(after which she changed her style of play to the one that has caused such an uproar).As we can see,she lost to MANY other players besides Kim and Serena:
2009 USO Final, L to Clijsters...not competitive but,to be fair,it was her first slam final
2009 YEC, I'll give her a pass here cuz she was barely able to stand up straight
2010 AO, 6-4,6-3 4th Round loss to Li...not an embarrassing loss on paper,but she didn't even
pose any threat to Li in this match
2010 RG, 6-2,6-3 loss to Fran in the QFs....I admire Fran's scrappiness,but try to find any OTHER
matches where she so thoroughly dominated a world #1(though Caro was only #3 back then)
2010 Wimby, Absolutely annihilated by Kvitova...this match wasn't even remotely suspenseful
2010 USO, L to Vera....Have already mentioned how Vera,like JJ and my sweet Dinara,is an
almost ideal Slam SF foe,yet Caro couldn't even challenge her much that day
2010 YEC, Loss to Kim in the final....Another loss that's not shameful,but I went back and
checked the score of this match where Caro was,in your words,"close to beating Kim",
and the 3rd set score was 6-3...which suggests that Caro went out rather meekly
after getting that early break
2011 AO SF loss to Li....We can agree that this was a "good loss",but we DISagree over your
totally unfounded assertion that,with a win over Li,Caro would've been any
closer to winning the AO than Dinara was in the 2009 Final
2011 RG Pathetic loss to Dani...enough said
2011 Wimby Ditto,pathetic loss to Domi....utterly unworthy from a world #1
2011 USO Dominated by Serena in the semis...who then lost in straights to Stosur in
final,so the 'it was Serena' excuse just doesn't fly here--Caro was
outclassed once more at a slam while world #1
2011 YEC Following an earlier RR loss to Bepa...dominated once more by Kvitova to get
eliminated from the event

Not counting the 2009 YEC(as stated above),that's ELEVEN slams from 2009 USO to 2011 YEC,
NINE of which yielded unacceptable losses for a world #1-caliber player(the exceptions being 2010 YEC and 2011 AO).Only THREE of those eleven losses came back against Kim or Serena,and several of the others were at least somewhat shameful...that's not bad luck,that's a PATTERN at Slams,and the numbers simply don't support your claim that Caro was about to break through.I loved celebrating Caroline's successes in 2010 and 2011...even the smaller Seoul crown from THIS year.Unfortunately,that earlier style of play was sufficient to take Premiers and go deep in Slams once in a while...just not enough to WIN them,barring a blessed encounter with an Errani-type in the final....and Caroline eventually figured that reality out
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 09:47 AM   #4314
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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...that's not bad luck,that's a PATTERN at Slams,and the numbers simply don't support your claim that Caro was about to break through...
I dont see any pattern to 1st time slam winners. Schiavone, Li, Stosur were all surprises.Only 2 majors have been won by all the players under 25. But until Serena won the last 2, 7 different slam winners in a row, 4 were 1st timers. So I never thought a slam final & 3 slam semis were a bad slam record for a 21 year old.I think the big problem is that she didnt believe the foundation of her consistent game was worth keeping.She's not a steady player anymore. Now its past 3 years since that one slam final, and it seems far far away
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 01:32 PM   #4315
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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I dont see any pattern to 1st time slam winners.
Again,you're avoiding the REAL issue;it's not a question of Caro's becoming a nominal,one-time Slam winner,she/we would like her to be a CONSISTENT THREAT at Slams and,as we can see from the losses above,she either lost in a much earlier round than her seeding would warrant,was completely dominated....or,in some cases,BOTH!All the evidence points to the fact that Caro's old game allowed her to SOMEtimes go deep in Slams but NOT win them.....and it was CARO who ultimately figured that out;it's insulting to suggest that she's so weak-minded or dizzy that she'd allow hostile media to brainwash her into believing that
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #4316
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Again,you're avoiding the REAL issue;it's not a question of Caro's becoming a nominal,one-time Slam winner,she/we would like her to be a CONSISTENT THREAT at Slams and,as we can see from the losses above,she either lost in a much earlier round than her seeding would warrant,was completely dominated....or,in some cases,BOTH!All the evidence points to the fact that Caro's old game allowed her to SOMEtimes go deep in Slams but NOT win them.....and it was CARO who ultimately figured that out;it's insulting to suggest that she's so weak-minded or dizzy that she'd allow hostile media to brainwash her into believing that
She was getting deep into every hardcourt major. Final USO 2009, then SF SF in 2010,2011.She was one point from the AO final in 2011. At the FO she lost to the eventual champion, Schiavone in a QF in 2010. I thought her clay runup to 2011 FO was her best clay season. A good effort in a Rome SF to Sharapova. Wins in Brussels, Charleston, final Stuttgart.We disagree on how good she was. I think she was excellent and playing at the highest level besides Serena & Kim.You think she was going to lose every major no matter what. Now I agree with you. I cant see any slam draw she gets thru, the way she's playing
The weakminded part is NOT that she tried to improve. Its that she dropped so far, so fast.. with no reason for it. She was healthy, she played a full schedule, and now she hasnt made a Tier I/slam/YEC final since spring of 2011. The next chance is in 2013, and she'll be an outsider based on her 2012 form
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #4317
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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She was getting deep into every hardcourt major. Final USO 2009, then SF SF in 2010,2011.She was one point from the AO final in 2011. At the FO she lost to the eventual champion, Schiavone in a QF in 2010. I thought her clay runup to 2011 FO was her best clay season. A good effort in a Rome SF to Sharapova. Wins in Brussels, Charleston, final Stuttgart.We disagree on how good she was. I think she was excellent and playing at the highest level besides Serena & Kim.You think she was going to lose every major no matter what. Now I agree with you. I cant see any slam draw she gets thru, the way she's playing
The weakminded part is NOT that she tried to improve. Its that she dropped so far, so fast.. with no reason for it. She was healthy, she played a full schedule, and now she hasnt made a Tier I/slam/YEC final since spring of 2011. The next chance is in 2013, and she'll be an outsider based on her 2012 form
Okay,Goldenlox,it's time to get off the bus toward your delusional field trip: Dinara ALSO went deep in Slams;in fact,she made THREE finals to Caro's One...and guess what?She wasn't any closer to winning than Caro was. When you note how Caroline was DOMINATED in some of her losses,that indicates that she wasn't at the elite level in Slams.You practically never see one of the legends get her ass royally kicked unless the opponent is in absolute GOAT mode,hitting 120 mph serves down the middle and painting the lines with winners.....That wasn't true in ANY of Caro's losses except for,maybe,the Serena loss(I can't recall)...even so,chronic Slam underachiever Stosur beat her in the very next match.You keep repeating 'one point from the 2011 AO final' over and over like some idiotic Catholic offering some mantra to Jesus' dead,human mother.What THEN?What if Li had gifted an UE to Caro on match point?Was she gonna destroy Kim in the final?HELL F--KING NO!!She probably wouldn't even have won a set if you judge by the NUMEROUS examples of Slam flame-outs that I gave you in that other,detailed post.

Losing to Fran by a score like 6-2,6-3 is unacceptable;Fran NEVER beats top players by such dominant scores--in fact,she rarely beats them at all....Getting destroyed by Dani ON CLAY is unacceptable...You quote me as saying that she'd lose every Slam no matter what.....WakeTFU,Goldenlox!!!She DID lose,so it's not a question of speculating and,as I listed CLEARLY for you and everyone else,only TWO of those eleven losses were truly close matches where she had a halfway chance to win.I don't see HOW you can get around that final stat....unless you're one of those people who crawls on her knees for 5 km to 'talk' with a stone statue of Mary....Caro had every reason to doubt that her passive style of play wouldn't take her any further than it did,and I haven't heard ANY intelligent tennis legend...except for YOU,of course...who suggested that she should do absolutely nothing to add aggressive elements to her game.What's so hilarious is that you complained so strongly--rightfully so,in this case--about Caro's inability to finish off points and opponents....while,at the same time,protesting her efforts to learn how to do exactly that.I can't even pretend to grasp your (il)logic there
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #4318
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Caro is still early in her career. If that 1 slam final is it, then she probably never had what it took (mentally) to win majors, no matter what style she plays.I think a lot of people think like bruce goose, that Caroline was never winning a major. It looks like they all were right. She is far far from winning a major now. This whole current situation, with a part time coach, who leaves after she loses round 1 at majors, so Caroline can go hang out at the golf course, it does look like majors are not the imperative for her.
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #4319
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Caro is still early in her career. If that 1 slam final is it, then she probably never had what it took (mentally) to win majors, no matter what style she plays.I think a lot of people think like bruce goose, that Caroline was never winning a major. It looks like they all were right. She is far far from winning a major now. This whole current situation, with a part time coach, who leaves after she loses round 1 at majors, so Caroline can go hang out at the golf course, it does look like majors are not the imperative for her.
Or is this all going according to some Machiavellian scheme? Perhaps Caroline wants the tennis illuminati and, more importantly, her competition to consider her a non factor then, BAM!, next thing you know Caroline wins the calendar grand slam in 2013 thereby having one of the greatest single seasons in the history of the game. Well, it could happen.
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Old Oct 6th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #4320
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

While the season is not quite over we can assess one of Caroline's goals for 2012. I can't recall if it was Caroline or Piotr (perhaps it was both) who claimed that she was going to focus on the slams in 2012. Let's see, QF, third round, first round, first round...those are her worst results since 2007 when she lost in the first round once and the second round twice (she did not play at the 2007 Australian Open). I wish that someone would point that out to her and ask her to respond. It just seems so inexplicable that she has fallen so far so quickly.
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