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Old Jul 14th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #31
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

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Originally Posted by Frederik View Post
Is it

200/150/100/100/75/75/75/75 (for the teams)

and the normal bonus points (like in singles tipping) for the individual ranking?

at a GS
It would probably be better to change it to Top 4 teams and top 8 players
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Old Jul 14th, 2012, 05:52 AM   #32
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

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Originally Posted by Frederik View Post
It would probably be better to change it to Top 4 teams and top 8 players
I'd say we leave it as is for this season and see how things will develop. If interest for the doubles game doesn't grow with time, we should consider awarding the same number of teams/players with bonus points, in both tournament categories, as of next year. Cause we've already played like half of the planned number of tournaments for 2012, and we are making rule changes quite often in tipping lately, so maybe some things should be saved for next season. Just a thought
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Old Jul 29th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #33
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

Maybe alongside tweaking the point distribution, for next season we could consider allowing signing-up further in advance. In real tennis, players commit to playing tournaments weeks, sometimes even months before they begin, so why not allow that for teams in tipping doubles as well (I don't see the point of it in singles). That way, people could schedule their whole season and would know who their partner is even before the event starts, while the manager wouldn't have to deal with all the teaming up in the first several days of the tournament. Could be practical.
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Old Jul 31st, 2012, 04:06 AM   #34
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

I have opened the Olympics doubles thread two or three days before it actuallu statred, but no one committed in. Maybe we can either send PM to active players, or create combined threads for Tipping Singles and Doubles, so as to attract active singles players play doubles as well...
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Old Jul 31st, 2012, 06:15 AM   #35
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

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Originally Posted by longtin23 View Post
I have opened the Olympics doubles thread two or three days before it actuallu statred, but no one committed in. Maybe we can either send PM to active players, or create combined threads for Tipping Singles and Doubles, so as to attract active singles players play doubles as well...
I'm not sure that joining singles and doubles into one thread would be a good idea, cause we'd probably need one manager for both. But even if we'd have two people working on it, one of them (the one who opened the thread) would still have to do most of the work. I know that people weren't signing in for the Olympics very early, but I believe part of the reason for that is the fact that this particular event started on a weekend, and that's not the norm.
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #36
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

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Btw guys, we never really discussed what happens if super tie-break is played in the finals - does STB count as one game, or does ever point in it count as a game. Luckily we didn't have this as an issue so far, cause finals were mostly straightforward or played with a normal tie-break, but what if...? I'd say we should count STB as one game. Do you think we need a poll about this? Next doubles event is Wimbledon so there is time to make this specific and add it to the rules.
Probably the best solution for this would be to count STB as 10 games, cause that's the smallest number of points required to win it. So if you think that a match will finish 6:2, 5:7, 13:11 you say 30 games (8+12+10). It would be pretty simple, so maybe we should give it a try in Cincy? And btw, just so we are sure, STB is not played at Slams and the Olympics, right (haven't checked the SEC and the TOC)?
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Old Sep 28th, 2012, 07:46 AM   #37
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

Here's an idea for next season - that we allow transfer of points. Let me explain with an example.

Currently if a player A teams up with player B and then player C and player D, he'll have four sets of points in the rankings.

But let's say that we allow players to each transfer 50% of points from the previous team into the next, then a player would always have just one set of points. With this, we could also allow an unlimited number of partners in a season.

Example:

- players A and B earned a total of 430 points before one of them had to skip a tournament for whatever reason and this, by today's rules, ruins their chances of qualifying for the YEC
- but if we allow each of them to take 215 points into their next team, each still has a chance, certainly a better one than if he/she is to start from scratch with a new partner
- so now player A could team up with player C and take his 215 points to be combined with those that player C earned thus far, and player B could do the same by teaming up with player D and taking his half of points
- if there's an odd number of points, we could make it a rule that one is deducted before splitting, so 721 becomes 360 for each
- team points would still lead to the YEC

Anybody else thinks this is a good idea?
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #38
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

How would this work with those who change partners a lot (in the early season when newcomers don't find a partner?) Would they then have to give up a 50 % again when they pick yet another partner for the next tournament, even when they took more points into the new partnership?

I'm not against the idea in principle, I just think it needs some more clarification...
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 01:32 PM   #39
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

So here's roughly how it would work...

A and B partner at the start of the season, play some and earn 300 points, when something happens and they decide to part ways.

A teams up with AA and brings into this partnership 150 points. If AA is a newcomer with 0 points, they would have 150 of A's points to start with. They play some, the team falls apart for some reason and A takes half of their, let's say, 400 points into the new team. Teams up with AB who brings 180 points from his team (he hook up with B in the meantime), so they have 200 + 180 = 380. once they start to play together.

So this would work pretty much like divorce in California, each leaves the marriage with 50% of assets regardless of how much each one brought in. But as you say, maybe it would be even better if we'd make that 50% of assets accumulated during the course of the marriage, so to speak. Either way, it would be better than what we have now, when you have to work from scratch every time you change a partner and stand no chance of qualifying for the YEC once that happens.
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Old Oct 5th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #40
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

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So this would work pretty much like divorce in California, each leaves the marriage with 50% of assets regardless of how much each one brought in. But as you say, maybe it would be even better if we'd make that 50% of assets accumulated during the course of the marriage, so to speak.
Yeah, I think so. Particularly after a grand tournament, where 4-6 players could have a lot of points, and then lose them because they paired up with someone who doesn't want to continue the game next tournament.

Another alternative would be to have 1 or 2 YEC spots awarded on the singles ranking - and they could choose which partner they wanted to bring to the YEC.
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Old Oct 21st, 2012, 02:31 PM   #41
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

Is it the YEC ranking points for doubles is the same as singles??
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Old Oct 21st, 2012, 02:35 PM   #42
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

yes. but top 8 for singles and top 4 for doubles (obviously)
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Old Nov 14th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #43
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

Ahead of the new season we need to establish some things in doubles and turn them into rules.

As discussed earlier, I propose that we disregard the rule of a three partner yearly maximum, and implement the point transfer rule. So if two players have decided not to play together anymore, each takes 50% of the points they've earned together (+ points which one brought into the partnership) and transfers them into another partnership. This would make partner lists obsolete, as you wouldn't need to pay attention anymore with whom you're about to team-up and if you're allowed to do so.

Since there is a proposition for a new bonus point distribution for singles, that would automatically affect doubles. Therefore, since singles would award 12 players only in majors and PM's, the same would apply for doubles (12 players and 6 teams), while in other tournament categories there would be no changes (8 players and 4 teams). For more info, see the poll in the Tipping section of the Games forum.

There was a suggestion of allowing players to sign up in advance, to solve the problem of teams forming after the tournament has already started. We could have this by managers openning threads days in advance (a week would probably do) or by sending your team applications via PM to the manager.

We never established any specific rules regarding a super tie-break. It is played in the finals of every tournament except a grand slam, which means that guessing the games the standard way might not be possible. But counting each point in the STB as a game in tipping wouldn't be practical either, because STB can go into considerable lenghts (say, 16-14; if first two sets went each to 6-4 that would require a guess of 50). However I'm not sure that counting STB as one point would be some great solution either. Maybe we should count STB as 1 point if you think it'll resolve by 10, two if you think it'll go after 10 but not beyond 20 and so on. So if you think the match will finish 6:3, 2:6 10:8 you'd guess 18 (9+8+1); but if you'd think the same STB would go to 16-14 you'd guess 19 (9+8+2), and one more if you'd think the STB would go beyond 30 points for the winner.

The final and tie breaker rule stay the same, as stated here: "During a tournament, points of a team are a sum of points earned by the two players (e.g. 31+24=55 for a team). For a final match number of games is guessed and the average of the two numbers guessed by the team members is used to solve ties (23+27=50/2=25). If two teams have the same average, the team with the fastest poster wins."

Another suggestion I have is to reduce points awarded at the doubles YEC and make them the same as those for a regular premier event, assuming we adopt the new bonus points distribution. It's just 4 teams competing in 3 matches, so giving so many points to the winner(s) is kind of ridiculous IMO.

I think this covers most of those unresolved (or not clarified) issues. If you have some other suggestions or ideas, feel free to speak up

Last edited by ma re : Nov 14th, 2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old Dec 1st, 2012, 08:06 AM   #44
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

I hate to interrupt this heated discussion between me and myself, but here's another suggestion for STB; that we guess the number of points in STB separately. In other words, you'd send something "like 28 games + 17 STB", meaning that you're guessing the match will end in 28 games, and that if it goes into STB your guess is 17 points. This way we could have another helpful detail to resolve ties - who was closer in guessing the number of STB points.
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Old Dec 6th, 2012, 07:19 AM   #45
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Re: Tipping doubles (2012) ideas, suggestions...?

Well I hope you wouldn't guess 28 games then because the maximum would be 26.

I think that may be the fairest and easiest solution to implement.

Idea: should 'one of the team members closer' be a tie-breaker before who posted first? IMO, if the match is 20 games, 19 & 21 is a better tip than 17 & 23. (Not entirely sure the 2nd one is a better tip when the match is 16 games, though...)
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