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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #46
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Nonsense. Margaret Court? Only on this forum have I heard her mentioned in the same breath as Graf and Navratilova.

Whereas in the tennis world pundits have been wanting to mention Serena in the same breath as Navratilova, Graf, Evert for YEARS. Her game has been there since 2002. She just needed some more stats to back it up.
Nonsense? Is that why she has the most slams of any player in history? 24.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:27 AM   #47
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Graf's career has the huge asterix of the Seles stabbing as you have been the first to point out many times over. How many less slams would Graf have won? Who knows, but it is quite possible Serena would be tieing her in slam wins with this U.S Open or at the upcoming Australian Open had it not happened. Graf showed at various times when faced with other big hitters or good defenders she can either be impatient (matches vs Seles and Sanchez Vicario, especialy on clay) or sometimes overpowered (93 Australian and 95 U.S Open vs Seles, matches with Davenport, Venus, Serena towards end of career). Serena eats other big hitters or strong defenders for breakfast. That is a form that some might suggest shows superior ability, not neccessarily true, but not an invalid argument either. Also feel to correct me if I am wrong, but havent you stated more than once you feel Seles should be rated above Graf. Well if so surely you could easily make a case for Serena being above Graf, after all there isnt much or any case for Seles being above Serena so if Seles > Graf then Serena....

Evert and Navratilova you are right on but seriously how competitive was womens tennis then compared to now, even in period people say are "weak" fields like the last few years, there is still far more depth than the Martina/Chris show that ran for years. Navratilova dominated a super weak 1982-1986, with only an either very sluggish Chris (82-83 especialy) or 30 something Chris (late 84 and beyond), and Hana once she came out of her lengthy slump (late 85 to early 87) as competitive, with other abysmal group of top tenners, with doubles specialist and overachieving solid singles performer Shriver as the clear best of the rest. You wouldnt see Martina lose only 3 matches in 2 years if she had to face all of Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, and a few others in or near their primes like Serena did when she dominated in 2002/2003. Evert faced more competition, but the way she was beaten down so easily by Martina for awhile once Martina came into her prime, stands against her in a big way.

I think Court is unfairly diminished, but the truth is regardless what I think many will point out the Australian Open status of the 60s and 70s, and that the womens game was probably less competitive pre Open Era.
You can make points against ALL players, but at the end of the day Court holds the record, Graf is second, Wills 3rd, Evert/Nav 4th and Serena fifth. Those are objective facts.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:28 AM   #48
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
if Monica hadn't been stabbed, she might have been a threat for Serena's titles from 1999-2003
Good point
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:48 AM   #49
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

While I can see the case being made based on factors that go beyond majors won, I still don't agree and I'm one of the biggest Serena fans there is. However, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the popcorn cuz some of the asinine posts from the haters in here prove y'all are so....



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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:52 AM   #50
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
if Monica hadn't been stabbed, she might have been a threat for Serena's titles from 1999-2003
Contemplating Seles winning slams in 2002 or 2003 even without the stabbing is too laughable to even divulge into. Before 2002 Serena won exactly 1 slam and did it in emphatic fashion beating 5 present or future slam champions in a row, including the top 3 ranked women Hingis and Davenport, even then long long past the Seles era. LOL at the desperation of a Graf-tard, trying to bring Serena into the Seles stabbing equation with Graf, pathetic beyond words.

For the record even Graf's 1996 slams I dont question much really since Seles was back on tour and active, and if she wasnt good enough by that point it was her problem really, and Graf was more emphatic and dominant that year then she had been any year since 1989. However there is no doubt Graf's slams 1993-1995, outside of maybe Wimbledon, come into serious doubt, especialy the way a fat, tendonitis, 2nd tournament in almost 3 years Seles nearly powered Graf right off the court and dished her a bagel in the 95 U.S Open. Especialy as Graf wasnt all that impressive either, especialy in 1993 and 1994, apart from the 1994 Australian Open. Serena does not even enter into this topic, and it is the first time I saw someone so delusional to even attempt such a point, only Graf.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:57 AM   #51
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by capcl View Post
You can make points against ALL players, but at the end of the day Court holds the record, Graf is second, Wills 3rd, Evert/Nav 4th and Serena fifth. Those are objective facts.
You know full well that is not the order most people rate them in at all, so obviously considerations go beyond pure slam win totals, hence why a strong case is being made for Serena.

Anyway if slam wins were all that mattered Emerson would be the 3rd greatest mens player of all time, LOL!
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 04:13 AM   #52
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by capcl View Post
Nonsense? Is that why she has the most slams of any player in history? 24.
The talk of Serena being greatest is driving a whole race of haters nuts. Following your warped logic of the 24 slams I wonder why graf is considered greater than court in real tennis circles.
you think Court would take a set from Graf/Serena with those days push-tennis era. Given all the elements of today's and yesterdays tennis, A champion of today will scrub the floor with one who played in the 50s despite they quantitative slams victory. I know you will throw the numbers around because it makes you feel good. Chris evert won 18 slams without a serve and my dear friend looking at Serena and Evert's game Serena will thriple bagel Evert. Deal with it. Serena is not even talking about being the greatest. It's people like McEnroe, Vicka, Kim, etc and they are great tennis players and past #1s for that matter. I think their opinion about the subject of greatness counts more than a casual internet poster on the subject.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 11:46 PM   #53
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time



Sure she is!
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Old Sep 12th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #54
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by tak View Post
The talk of Serena being greatest is driving a whole race of haters nuts. Following your warped logic of the 24 slams I wonder why graf is considered greater than court in real tennis circles.
YOu do realize that this forum part of 'real tennis circles'? And we're having the argument here.

For that matter, Evert's 90% career winning allows her to stake a claim to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tak View Post
you think Court would take a set from Graf/Serena with those days push-tennis era.
First off, calling that era 'push-tennis' just reveals your ignorance. You had to think in that era, not just hit the ball hard, and one you had a winner set up, you really had to go for it to get velocity.

As for Court would beat Serena/Graf quite often. On those courts with those rackets. Serena's serve wouldn't BE what it is with those rackets, The sweet spot on them was the size of your fist, and you couldn't get near the velocity.

You are right in that Court would be hard pressed to get a set with modern technology. Her game was built for the ball going so much faster. But I think it would be much easier to adjust from the old technology to the new, rather than from the new to the old.
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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #55
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Record Comparison:

Serena Williams---Career Record 549-108
Martina Navratilova---Career Record 1449-219
Chris Evert---Career Record 1309-145
Steffi Graf---Career Record 900-115

Martina has twice as many losses, but nearly 3 times as many wins as Serena. She has played in OVER 1,000 more matches than Serena! Sorry, but injuries? Martina played 1000 more SINGLES matches...don't forget about the fact that she played doubles week in and week out too.

Chris has 760 MORE wins than Serena, but only 38 MORE losses.

Steffi has 351 MORE wins than Serena, but only 7 MORE losses.

Title Comparison:

Serena: 45
Steffi: 107
Chris: 154
Martina: 167

Everyone has more than DOUBLE Serena's titles, with Chris and Martina having comfortably more than TRIPLE (and almost QUADRUPLE) the number of titles that Serena has.


Simply put, Serena does not have the longevity, the consistency, nor the numbers to be consider the "GOAT". People want to claim injury or the "depth and aggressive training" that are necessary to be successful today, and I agree to a certain point, but you can't make that argument work against those numbers. You can't tell me that Martina Navratilova or Steffi Graf were not working out constantly and putting themselves through a pounding. Serena often got injured due to her own lack of preparation and training. It is no secret that Serena lacked motivation at times (why should she motivated when she is head and shoulders above the competition?).

Sure, Serena could compete and be VERY successful against the other greats, especially if they were asked to come to the future and use new technology (it'd be a different story if Serena went back in time). But we can't honestly compare different generations because technology has improved and the game is constantly evolving and changing. If you look at the names that Chrissie lost to in her grandslams, though, and compare them to Serena's losses, you will again see that Serena has some poor unaccountable losses.

All this being said, I don't think it is fair to judge Serena against the GOATs. Like I said before, generations cannot and should not be compared. Serena is the GREATEST of her generation, no ifs, ors, ands or buts about it! Serena decided to have other interests outside of tennis, and that maybe cost her some in her tennis accomplishments, but ultimately she's done with the game of tennis, I think it will help her in the long run. I think we should just congratulate Serena on being the GREATEST of her GENERATION, and leave it at that----cheer her on while she is still out there, like all the players mentioned in this thread, she has progressed the game of tennis.
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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 01:23 AM   #56
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Endless discussions as usual. I always thought Steffi was best, Serena is coming closer now obviously.
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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 01:36 AM   #57
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Others brought up a good point though. Rightly or wrongly (IMO wrongly, especialy regarding Graf) the reality is the vast majority of people and experts believe Graf or Navratilova is the greatest female player of all time. Graf is only 2nd in slam wins and Navratilova is only tied for 4th. This too is arguably an inflated position for Graf considering the Seles stabbing, and Navratilova would be way behind not only Court and Graf, but also Wills Moody and Evert had everyone played the Australian and French in the 20s and 70s (to those who challenge this Evert would have won way more combined Australians and French Opens in the 70s when she was the dominant player than Navratilova who might have managed 1 or 2 grass Aussies at the end of the decade, that is it). However despite that Graf and Navratilova are considered the two best by most people today.

So this is proof that it is not all about slam wins or stats, so saying nobody can say Serena is best ever due to not leading any stats, that is not the case. If it were all about stats everyone would say Court is the best ever, and while Court is disgracefully underrated, it is obvious that is not the view of most people, so unless you are willing to give Court her due and admit that she is probably the GOAT based on the stats, then you cant dismiss Serena easily from the argument by just saying well her stats arent the best. Not saying you have to concede her the greatest ever of course, but you also cant automatically assume all to look past her due to stats unless you are willing to concede Court, and not Graf or Navratilova is the GOAT.

Reality is tennis is played on a tennis court, not on paper. Serena's career consistency is far from the best, hence why she doesnt lead the stats. However it is quite possible had all these women played in the same era she would lead them all in many stats including slam wins, since her really good tennis would shut everyone else out virtually everytime on grass or hard courts. These women were all the best in their own eras so naturally when they played well usually won each particular slam, but these others being more consistent than Serena, and their best being better than others best of their time just like Serena, they ended up winning more. Playing in the same era as Serena would bring a whole new dimension to things though, particularly for those of us who believe her really good tennis would beat all others really good tennis on grass or hard courts, even given time coded into a whole new era, with the same equipment, etc....Not that you have to accept this viewpoint but it is not an implausible one either.

Now if Serena still had only 9 slams of course you couldnt argue her as the best ever, but now that she is only a few behind some of the GOAT contenders one can argue her based on sheer playing level.


Lastly for all the dissing of the womens field from 2009-2011 imparticular over the course of her career Serena has faced more overall competition than anyone. Lets break it down:

Navratilova- dominated a really weak field 82-86. Yeah she had Chris, and occasionaly Hana, but lack of depth would be a massive understatement, the top 10 was mostly filled with scrubs who wouldnt scare even a 1 slam winner in the slightest. That isnt to take away from the fact her dominance these years was amazing no matter the field, and she played some of the best tennis ever by a women which was revolutionary at that point.

Evert- did face some deep fields during her reign in the 70s, but was only the #1 for any extended period when Court and King were well into their 30s, and before Navratilova got it together.

Graf- dominated with Navratilova and Evert in their 30s, lost dominance to Seles, Seles stabbed, dominates again, new generation emerges, gets injured, recovers enough to face them and puts up admirable fight in 1999, retires at barely 30 rather than testing herself against them further, the end.

Court- 60s was underrated and pretty good field, but the state of the Australian Open back then is well documented, and of her two main rivals she and King almost never played their best tennis in the same years, Bueno dealt with major health problems her entire career after 1960, and the other top players were mostly clay courters Turner, Jones, and Richey, in a grass court heavy era.

Serena- Played in an era with Venus, Henin, Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, Sharapova, Mauresmo, all multi slam winners, and only Henin and Hingis did she hardly ever meet peak to peak, outlasted them all including the younger ones, and now in new era is facing off with near certain future multi slam winners Azarenka and Kvitova as well. Early in career dealt faced off with Graf and Seles as well.

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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 02:44 AM   #58
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Serena draws the most audiences and makes the most money, so IMO Serena is the GOAT

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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 03:07 AM   #59
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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I havent seen any form since 2002-2003 that comes close to the best players of all time aside from the serve.
Charleston against Stosur was probably the best I've ever seen her play. I don't know if tennis can be played any better than that.
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Old Sep 13th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #60
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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If she dominated the last two slam finals, I'd give her more credit but she's struggled in finals against weak competition this year. I'm not sure how these wins put her above the top 3 (Graf, Navs, Evert).

Even then, she's mopping up slams in the weakest point ever seen in the Open Era as far as greats. She has no rival and it's not because she is just that amazing but because the field is just so awful that when she actually plays like sh!t (Wimbledon and USO finals), no one can do anything about it.

In terms of accomplishments, she'll probably end up in Evert territory. Somewhat close to the greatest but definitely not the greatest.

Now if we talk about who the "best" female player of all-time is/was? I havent seen any form since 2002-2003 that comes close to the best players of all time aside from the serve.
I can't even tell you how your post made me laugh. Your the tennis expert of the week are you?

So you think your so smart you can tell everyone whos not the best and Serena is certainly know here near the best.

First of all you mentioned her serve. Her serve is the best. It's not only the best serve right now it's the best serve women's tennis had ever had or will probably ever have.

No woman has consistently been able to slam 25 aces a match against her oponnents not to mention her record number of aces she continues to pile up. Her ground strokes are better on both the backhand and forehand wings than any of her past contemporaries also.

Her slam count is already at 15. She's going to win Australia and shes the favorite at Wimbledon so that's 17 slams by next year at least not to mention she has chances for another us open and that's not including the year after that where she will most like win more then too. So yes, Serena is the best and as far as her competition. It's far tougher than when evert or graff played. Your dream world where u think the current top 3 females would stand a chance in hell against a peak Serena throwing an average of 3 aces a game against a Chris evert who couldn't even hit aces to begin with or a serve and volleying Navratilova who wouldn't be able to serve and volley against a 120 mph serve is laughable. Don't get me started on steffi graff and her slice backhand. Because this ain't 1992 and we don't play at that speed anymore baby . Get real
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