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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #16
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
If she dominated the last two slam finals, I'd give her more credit but she's struggled in finals against weak competition this year. I'm not sure how these wins put her above the top 3 (Graf, Navs, Evert).

Even then, she's mopping up slams in the weakest point ever seen in the Open Era as far as greats. She has no rival and it's not because she is just that amazing but because the field is just so awful that when she actually plays like sh!t (Wimbledon and USO finals), no one can do anything about it.

In terms of accomplishments, she'll probably end up in Evert territory. Somewhat close to the greatest but definitely not the greatest.

Now if we talk about who the "best" female player of all-time is/was? I havent seen any form since 2002-2003 that comes close t
o the best players of all time aside from the serve.

Serena is 30+. You're acting like she's in her 20's. The fact that she can still play at a high level, even now, says tons. Don't use the weak era argument, because Serena won over half of her slams against Kim, Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Hingis, Seles, Mauresmo, etc.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #17
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Serena is 30+. You're acting like she's in her 20's. The fact that she can still play at a high level, even now, says tons. Don't use the weak era argument, because Serena won over half of her slams against Kim, Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Hingis, Seles, Mauresmo, etc.
If we are talking about accomplishments, she won 7 slams after Henin, Kim, Capriati, Hingis, Davenport and Seles had retired and Mauresmo and Venus were practically irrelevant.
And that she struggled against many of these lesser players doesn't add to her greatness.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #18
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
If we are talking about accomplishments, she won 7 slams after Henin, Kim, Capriati, Hingis, Davenport and Seles had retired and Mauresmo and Venus were practically irrelevant.
And that she struggled against many of these lesser players doesn't add to her greatness.
You're speculating as if she couldn't have done well even if they hadn't retired. And, I'm sure nobody would take away her slams due to her not blowing away the world No. 2 and No.1 in consecutive finals. And, she's won 11 of her slams with Henin and Clijsters, or both, in the draw. Maybe it takes away from Clijsters greatness that she beat the likes of Zvonareva and struggled against a raw Na Li and a barely known Wozniacki in her slam finals. You sound ridiculous. And bitter.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #19
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
You're speculating as if she couldn't have done well even if they hadn't retired. And, I'm sure nobody would take away her slams due to her not blowing away the world No. 2 and No.1 in consecutive finals. And, she's won 11 of her slams with Henin and Clijsters, or both, in the draw. Maybe it takes away from Clijsters greatness that she beat the likes of Zvonareva and struggled against a raw Na Li and a barely known Wozniacki in her slam finals. You sound ridiculous. And bitter.
This.
Why do people keep referring to Serena's lack of "accomplishments" when she has compiled quite a few?

These are off the top of my head.

She is the only woman to have won the doubles and singles in every Grand Slam and Olympics in Singles and doubles.
She's won more Aussie Opens than anybody else in the Open era.
She's the only woman to have won the US Open in 3 different decades.
She's the lowest seed to win the Aussie Open in the Open era.
etc.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #20
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
If she dominated the last two slam finals, I'd give her more credit but she's struggled in finals against weak competition this year. I'm not sure how these wins put her above the top 3 (Graf, Navs, Evert).

Even then, she's mopping up slams in the weakest point ever seen in the Open Era as far as greats. She has no rival and it's not because she is just that amazing but because the field is just so awful that when she actually plays like sh!t (Wimbledon and USO finals), no one can do anything about it.

In terms of accomplishments, she'll probably end up in Evert territory. Somewhat close to the greatest but definitely not the greatest.

Now if we talk about who the "best" female player of all-time is/was? I havent seen any form since 2002-2003 that comes close to the best players of all time aside from the serve.
She is 31 years old. To be dominating this way at that age, even against weak opposition, is an amazing feat. Graf was retired for a whole year by this point, and her last dominant tennis was at age 27. Navratilova and Evert grew up playing in a much less physical and competitive era than Serena did when players playing great into their 30s was commonplace unlike today.

As for the weak competition it isnt her fault that Henin and Clijsters who are younger than her couldnt keep up their form and had to retire rather than still be competing for titles with older Serena, that Hingis peaked before she was 20, let alone pushing it to past 30 like Serena, that the various Russian slam winners/slam contenders folded years ago except for Sharapova. Players of her own era and a younger era passed their peaks long ago, and here she is still going, she has outlasted all of them. That in itself is remarkable and a testement to her greatness.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:16 PM   #21
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

It's just because she is the only active great player. When people look back in years to come, she probably won't be remembered by many as the GOAT. She just doesn't have the credentials.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #22
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by capcl View Post
It's just because she is the only active great player. When people look back in years to come, she probably won't be remembered by many as the GOAT. She just doesn't have the credentials.
I know you and others will ignore this, but Serena's accomplishments and credentials have already surpassed that of most of the other GOATS already.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #23
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Pureracket View Post
I know you and others will ignore this, but Serena's accomplishments and credentials have already surpassed that of most of the other GOATS already.
How are there so many GOATS? I have heard arguments made for Evert, Graf, Navratilova, and Court.

I don't know how you could think Serena has anything on these players. She may in the future, but now?
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #24
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Pureracket View Post
I know you and others will ignore this, but Serena's accomplishments and credentials have already surpassed that of most of the other GOATS already.
Oh really? Like Court, Graf, Wills Moody, Evert and Navratilova? Please explain.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #25
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Greatest player of the last 13 years. No doubt. Greatest player Azarenka has ever played, too.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:35 PM   #26
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Oh really? Like Court, Graf, Wills Moody, Evert and Navratilova? Please explain.
Here you go:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost....7&postcount=19
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #27
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Pureracket View Post
This.
Why do people keep referring to Serena's lack of "accomplishments" when she has compiled quite a few?

These are off the top of my head.

She is the only woman to have won the doubles and singles in every Grand Slam and Olympics in Singles and doubles.
She's won more Aussie Opens than anybody else in the Open era.
She's the only woman to have won the US Open in 3 different decades.
She's the lowest seed to win the Aussie Open in the Open era.
etc.
This given the fact that Serena missed about 2 years of playing due to various misharps
makes the argument more compelling.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #28
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by capcl View Post
It's just because she is the only active great player. When people look back in years to come, she probably won't be remembered by many as the GOAT. She just doesn't have the credentials.
Sounds like you've got a formula for Serena's place in history in years to come. If she is getting so
much debate about her greatness while still playing, I wonder what you guys will do in the future given that she will win more slams in the time she has to play. I don't think you can deny that she will win more slams even now.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #29
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

i just cant agree with that statement

im always going to vieww steffi and margaret as the top 2
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:38 AM   #30
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
You're speculating as if she couldn't have done well even if they hadn't retired. And, I'm sure nobody would take away her slams due to her not blowing away the world No. 2 and No.1 in consecutive finals. And, she's won 11 of her slams with Henin and Clijsters, or both, in the draw. Maybe it takes away from Clijsters greatness that she beat the likes of Zvonareva and struggled against a raw Na Li and a barely known Wozniacki in her slam finals. You sound ridiculous. And bitter.
They were in the draw but was it after their comebacks?

And she struggled from 2004-2008 and then suddenly wins slams again. She probably wouldnt be as dominant if there was a challenger (like Henin in her prime or even Sharapova or Mauresmo in their primes). And even without a challenger she didn't put up Graf or Navratilova-like dominance.

I'm just stating realities. And Kim, although a favorite of mine, is not an all-time great. So there's not really a comparison.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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