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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 01:06 AM   #331
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
The word "best" should simply be removed from the P5 sections of the rules.
In WTA rulebooks this word has always been used ambiguously. Best tournament result sometimes means the actual highest ranking score (within some range of tournaments) and sometimes - a result that counts on a player's ranking. IMO they should adopt the ATP term countable result to denote the latter.
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #332
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

guys, Azarenka behind Cincinnati should not get a zero?
Vika in the last year there is not played there, and the rules of WTA said that if the player missed in the last year tournament, then he is required to play the next.
Is not it?

"2. Additional Commitment Requirements
a. A Top 10 Player must commit to each Premier 5 Tournament at
least once every other year.
"

Last edited by Yuri_Bot : Aug 12th, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #333
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
I would be quite surprised if the WTA were to conclude the same thing.
Who cares?
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
To get an answer to peculiar situations like this one, I went to the actual wording of the rules and concluded that a penalty 0 can only be used to satisfy the "best 2" requirement when there isn't another, better P5 result available.
You are mistaken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
On Aug 13, Fran will still have three non-zero P5 results available and the best two of those, 125 & 1, must be used as her "best 2". In addition, the penalty 0 will continue to be included until it expires. I believe 1926 was her correct total all along: 990 from 8 mandatories/slams + 126 from best 2 P5's + penalty 0 + remaining 5 of 16 slots left open for best 5 other results of 280+200+200+70+60. Have I missed something?
Yes! E.g. you
  • overlooked that more than some of WTA’s rules let a lot of room for scope of interpretation,
  • neglected a reasonable explanation of WTA’s ranking system and
  • failed to spot WTA’s continuing interpretation of their Mandatory 0 pointer interpretation (which is always in players’ favor)!
Instead you pegged to the phrase “two (2) best results from P5 tournaments” (and you constantly missed the phrase “if played during the year”) and from that [“1 is higher than (Mandatory) 0”], you constructed that a former Top 10 player has to include (if played) two P5 results and all of her Mandatory 0 pointer earned for missing P5 tournaments she committed to. As you will realize tomorrow for another time, WTA’s ranking system doesn’t work the way you believe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoiledEgg View Post
Thats what i got 1st

Just for the record: You didn’t answer SAISAI-GOAT’s question two times (see posts # 324 & # 330) and you still stood silent after he asked you for a third time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAISAI-GOAT View Post
you changed Fran's points from 1985 to 1926 to 1925 ... can you please explain what you count and do not count
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoiledEgg View Post
whole thing is rather confusing
Looking at your answers after you incorrectly predicted next weeks’ ranking of players within specific situations (e.g. P5 results for new Top 20 player Sabine Lisicki, Long Term Injury for Top 10 player Andrea Petkovic), and your false information about mandatory 0 pointer (e.g Serena Williams) I conclude that you either not prepared to read this few pages of WTA’s ranking system and to ask specific questions or you don’t understand their wording.
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
[...] On Apr 30 Kvitova was given a total of 7170, which didn't use her best two P5's, rather only included one non-zero P5 and a P5 penalty 0. Exactly the same situation with Fran now. […]
No, as these are two different issues you are mistaken!
  • It turns out that Top 10 player Petra Kvitova missed her commitment to P5 Doha and consequently received a Mandatory 0 pointer (”Any Top 10 Player who fails to play in a Premier 5 or Premier 700 Commitment Tournament will automatically receive zero (0) points for the Tournament and it will count on that player’s ranking as one (1) of her best 16 Tournament results.”.
  • It’s clearly written that (”A Top 10 Player’s ranking must include her two (2) best results from Premier 5 Tournaments played during the year (which may be zero (0) points, if applicable), plus any other zero (0) points under sub-Sections (b) and (c) above”.
  • Existing Top 20 player Francesca Schiavone must include her best two P5 results, if any. As she is a former Top 10 player and she didn’t fulfill her commitment to P5 Tokyo 2011, she received a Mandatory 0 pointer for missing this event. Even if “0” is smaller than “1”, WTA counts this as one of her two best P5 results for very good reasons!
  • Independently, new Top 20 players (like Petra Kvitova in 2012) has to include her best Premier 5 Tournament within the 52 weeks cycle after she participates in her first Premier 5 event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
[…]It's really just a simple 16 results yielding the highest total (which is already stated at the start of the rankings section), with the proviso that at least two P5's (any two) must be included. […]
This is incorrect (e.g Top 10 & new Top 20 player Andrea Petkovic didn’t play four P5’s and will not receive any Mandatory 0 pointer for missing Doha, Rome, Montreal & Cincinnati).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorn View Post
About Aga Radwanska:
How many points will she need from next week in Cincy to be No. 1, if she lose in the Finals this week (Monday) in Canada?
I doubt that Victoria Azarenka committed to P5 Cincinnati. If so guichard’s answer (see post # 346) is false.

If Victoria Azarenka didn’t commit to P5 Cincinnati, she will have accumulated 9,025 points as of 8/20/12 (0 pointer for missing P5 Cincinnati 2011 will be replaced with 280 points from I Luxembourg 2011) while Agnieszka Radwańska’s total points maximum will be 8,790.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri_Bot View Post
[...] Vika in the last year there is not played there, and the rules of WTA said that if the player missed in the last year tournament, then he is required to play the next. [...]
You are misguided!

The rule in question says that a Top 10 player must commit to four (out of five) P5 tournaments and WTA' interprets lit a of its additional commitment requirements that a Top 10 player has to commit to the one P5 event she didn't commit the year before.

Vika Azarenka committed to P5 Cincinnati in 2011, but as she didn't fulfill her commitment, she received a Mandatory 0 pointer for missing the event in question. If she didn't commit to P5 Cincinnati (as WTA doesn't inform the general public about Top 10 players commitment, only those who have access to this kind of information are in the know) she had committed for 2012 to Doha, Rome, Montreal & Tokyo.
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #334
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorn View Post
About Aga Radwanska:

How many points will she need from next week in Cincy to be No. 1, if she lose in the Finals this week (Monday) in Canada?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post

I doubt that Victoria Azarenka committed to P5 Cincinnati. If so guichard’s answer (see post # 346) is false.

If Victoria Azarenka didn’t commit to P5 Cincinnati, she will have accumulated 9,025 points as of 8/20/12 (0 pointer for missing P5 Cincinnati 2011 will be replaced with 280 points from I Luxembourg 2011) while Agnieszka Radwańska’s total points maximum will be 8,790.


Please read the question carefully before replying!!!!!!!!!!! Jorn said if Radwanska loses in the Final this week in Montreal.

Jorn asked his/her question and I answered it BEFORE Saturday's matches . No, Azarenka didn't commit to cincinnati
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 08:08 PM   #335
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Romina up to #56
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #336
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by guichard View Post
No, Azarenka didn't commit to cincinnati
And what about Sharapova? As I understand, she didn't receive a penalty zero for her absence from Doha, so she must have committed to the remaining four P5 tournaments, including Cincy.
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Old Aug 12th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #337
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

yes Sharapova committed to Rome, Montreal, Cincy and Tokyo ... so she gets 0 for Montreal and Cincy
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 02:37 AM   #338
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Lol, where to even start responding to a post like that? And the better question, why even bother But I’ve got some time to spare and the combative nature, particularly at the other people you address in your post, amuses me, so here goes, and then I’m outa here
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99
I would be quite surprised if the WTA were to conclude the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
Who cares?
That’s really adding valuable insight into the discussion. Should I respond with, “ Ask me if I care that you don’t care”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99
To get an answer to peculiar situations like this one, I went to the actual wording of the rules and concluded that a penalty 0 can only be used to satisfy the "best 2" requirement when there isn't another, better P5 result available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
You are mistaken!
You fail to demonstrate that, just flatly state it, then precede to wave your hands around making extraneous arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99
On Aug 13, Fran will still have three non-zero P5 results available and the best two of those, 125 & 1, must be used as her "best 2". In addition, the penalty 0 will continue to be included until it expires. I believe 1926 was her correct total all along: 990 from 8 mandatories/slams + 126 from best 2 P5's + penalty 0 + remaining 5 of 16 slots left open for best 5 other results of 280+200+200+70+60. Have I missed something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
Yes! E.g. you
  • overlooked that more than some of WTA’s rules let a lot of room for scope of interpretation,
  • neglected a reasonable explanation of WTA’s ranking system and
  • failed to spot WTA’s continuing interpretation of their Mandatory 0 pointer interpretation (which is always in players’ favor)!
I’ll respond in order:
  1. I didn’t overlook it at all, in fact I pointed it out. In every document, one must rely on some things being left to reasonable administrative interpretation. That’s very different than actually specifying something in a way that is at the very least misleading if not outright contrary to the intent in administering it. That’s called a badly written legal document.
  2. I didn’t include an explanation of the English language either I didn’t think I had to put a detailed explanation of the entire ranking system into my post, the presumption being that the audience here is well versed enough with it that I can make references to specific parts of it. You on the other hand haven’t responded with anything at all to the direct question,” where in the rules does it say you don’t have to include the best two P5 results?” I can show you where it flatly says they must be included. You haven’t come back with anything other than incoherent and extraneous arguments, some hand waving that the plain reading of the undefined term "best two" can be ignored, but can’t point to anything specific.
  3. It is not the WTA’s “Mandatory 0 pointer interpretation” that lends weight to interpreting other parts of the document in the player’s favour in areas of ambiguity. That is simply a general principle of law. The party that didn't draft the ambiguous document is usually given the benefit of doubt. It cannot be relied on to ignore provisions that are in fact explicitly stated. It also leads to another problem – what is favour of one player may actually be detrimental to another player. Which player gets to rely on an interpretation favourable to them?
    [ And the WTA does not always follow that principle either. Case in point, unless they’ve actually put in new wording since the last time I looked into it, there was nothing in the rules allowing Championships points to be expired before the full 52 weeks. They only specified how eligibility for the Premier Championships would be determined. It didn’t specify at all that Championships points were to be treated any differently than any other result for purposes of the regular rankings. Yet seeding was simply specified as being based on the defined term rankings without any mention of removing prior year Championships points. The WTA’s administration of that “room for interpretation” is not necessarily in a player’s favour. The same problem existed for both eligibility and seeding for the International Championships, where both just said it is based on rankings (which is a defined term referring in the rules to the regular rankings). Yet the WTA administers that “room for interpretation” assuming they can simple modify rankings in a way that is not specified and again not necessarily in the player’s favour. So your third point doesn’t hold water either.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
Instead you pegged to the phrase “two (2) best results from P5 tournaments” (and you constantly missed the phrase “if played during the year”) and from that [“1 is higher than (Mandatory) 0”], you constructed that a former Top 10 player has to include (if played) two P5 results and all of her Mandatory 0 pointer earned for missing P5 tournaments she committed to.
Purely argumentative statement by you. It was perfectly clear we were referring to the case of a player who already had the requirement to include two P5’s. I didn’t feel like writing a 17 page post detailing how it applies to other cases than the one at hand. More extraneous hand waving on your part to try and divert the arguement. Furthermore, are you inventing the term "Mandatory 0 pointer" to suggest a P5 penalty 0 is not a P5 result under the rules? If so, explain then why only one P5 result would be allowed for a player required to include two. If it is still a P5 result, explain where it says you can ignore the requirement to include the best two P5's when a player also has penalty P5's that haven't been reversed? Relying on the maximum number of penalties that can be given to a player doesn't speak to this issue at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
As you will realize tomorrow for another time, WTA’s ranking system doesn’t work the way you believe!
Wrong again. I found out long ago that WTA ranking rules as written cannot be relied on to justify what is done in some situations. That's the whole point of even discussing issues like this one in the hope they adopt better wording to remove the conflicts between what they wrote and what they do. It is not even that hard. In this case, simply remove the word "best" from the P5 sections where in uncontentious situations it adds nothing helpful anyway and in penalty situations it isn't being administered that way anyway. It's ludicrous to maintain the document couldn't easily be amended to clearly and even in fewer words give validity to the administrative intent for P'5 in this situation.

For the Kvitova example, you are correct. In my haste to find a similar situation that would at least allow the WTA to use past practise to defend acting contrary to the rules as written, I didn’t bother to check Petra’s 2010 yr-end ranking. So that Apr 30, 2012 case doesn’t lend any support to the current situation with Fran. Unfortunately that puts things back at no demonstrated support even in past practise for the exclusion of a better P5 result when one exists and the player is required to include their best two P5’s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by don99
[…]It's really just a simple 16 results yielding the highest total (which is already stated at the start of the rankings section), with the proviso that at least two P5's (any two) must be included. […]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Observer View Post
This is incorrect (e.g Top 10 & new Top 20 player Andrea Petkovic didn’t play four P5’s and will not receive any Mandatory 0 pointer for missing Doha, Rome, Montreal & Cincinnati).
My intent was to focus on the use of the word “best” and suggest it should and can be removed from the P5 sections, if that’s not what they are doing anyway. My intent wasn’t to try and include in one post all of the necessary caveats to the ranking formula in all situations. You haven’t done that either and never will. While it may be true that Andrea is not required to include those penalties after they have been reversed, she did have to include them while they were in effect. There is specific wording which accomplishes that. You are either missing the point or responding myopically on purpose.

Anyhow, enough fun for one evening. I see there are other people who may want a turn responding to you. See you guys next Febtember
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 02:29 AM   #339
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

think your points are wrong for Kirilenko ... she loses 70 gains 30 so should be 2795

and I think Kim may get a 0 for missing Cincy, not like it matters
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 09:08 AM   #340
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Zhang Shuai is 342 pts last week and 313 pts this week!!
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #341
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by vevenyin View Post
Zhang Shuai is 342 pts last week and 313 pts this week!!
she loses 30 pts and gains 1
342=30+1
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 09:56 PM   #342
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
I didn’t include an explanation of the English language either I didn’t think I had to put a detailed explanation of the entire ranking system into my post, the presumption being that the audience here is well versed enough with it that I can make references to specific parts of it. You on the other hand haven’t responded with anything at all to the direct question,” where in the rules does it say you don’t have to include the best two P5 results?” I can show you where it flatly says they must be included. You haven’t come back with anything other than incoherent and extraneous arguments, some hand waving that the plain reading of the undefined term "best two" can be ignored, but can’t point to anything specific.


As WTA shows 1,985 points for Francesca Schiavone in rankings as of 8/13/12, and you predicted 1,926 points, it turned out that you failed. Or: Your conclusion that a penalty 0 can only be used to satisfy the "best 2" requirement when there isn't another, better P5 result available was wrong.

At the time you are prepared to learn why you messed up, it might be a good idea to carefully re-read the appropriate rules (bolding is mine):
  • Any Top 10 Player who fails to play in a Premier 5 or Premier 700 Commitment Tournament will automatically receive zero (0) points for the Tournament and it will count on that player’s ranking as one (1) of her best 16 Tournament results.
  • A Top 10 Player’s ranking must include her two (2) best results from Premier 5 Tournaments played during the year (which may be zero (0) points, if applicable) […].
  • A Top 20 Player must include her two (2) best results from Premier 5 Tournaments if played during the year.

From there you should be able to answer the significant question:

Why does WTA count 0 points as Top 20 player's “best” P5 result, if a “better” 1 point result includes her record?

  • Only Top 10 players who fail to play a (P5) tournament they committed to, will automatically receive 0 points (former Top 10 player Francesca Schiavone missed her commitment to P5 Tokyo 2011 and automatically received 0 points).
  • If a Top 10 player missed two P5 tournaments she committed to, her best two P5 results, may be 0 points even if she (Top 10 player Vera Zvonareva committed to P5s Rome & Cincinnati 2012, didn’t play and as a result automatically received two 0 points. As her two best P5 results may be 0 points, her “better” 1 pointer from P5 Doha 2012 doesn’t count, because 60 points (P600 Sydney 2012) is superior.
  • Top 20 players cannot receive 0 points for missing a P5 tournament because they are not obliged to compete at these events. IMHO it’s out of touch to argue that a Top 20 player who received automatically 0 points for missing a P5 tournament during the period she was Top 10 player has to include a “better” 1 pointer because 1 is higher than 0, while Top 10 players’ two best P5 results may be 0 points (let’s assume Top 10 player Vera Zvonareva will be downgrade to Top 20 player status next season with these P5 results: 1-0-0-1 and 60-60 as 15th/16th result. Only those who don’t see the whole picture will conclude that WTA will replace both 60 pointer with two singles).
Bottom line: Those who like to argue on spot have to be prepared to read more than the line which fits to his/her approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by don99 View Post
And the WTA does not always follow that principle either. Case in point, unless they’ve actually put in new wording since the last time I looked into it, there was nothing in the rules allowing Championships points to be expired before the full 52 weeks. They only specified how eligibility for the Premier Championships would be determined. It didn’t specify at all that Championships points were to be treated any differently than any other result for purposes of the regular rankings. Yet seeding was simply specified as being based on the defined term rankings without any mention of removing prior year Championships points. The WTA’s administration of that “room for interpretation” is not necessarily in a player’s favour. The same problem existed for both eligibility and seeding for the International Championships, where both just said it is based on rankings (which is a defined term referring in the rules to the regular rankings). Yet the WTA administers that “room for interpretation” assuming they can simple modify rankings in a way that is not specified and again not necessarily in the player’s favour. So your third point doesn’t hold water either.


From WTA’s 2012 Official Rulebook (p 163):
Quote:
[…]The qualification method will count the previous 52 weeks of events, beginning the Monday of the week of the current Premier WTA Championships and dropping off the ranking points earned in the 2011 Premier WTA Championships and the 2011 International Tournament of Champions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAISAI-GOAT View Post
think your points are wrong for Kirilenko ... she loses 70 gains 30 so should be 2795 […]
You are spot on, but as The Boiled Egg doesn’t adjust his input accordingly, this is not the only flaw (e.g. Garbińe Muguruza Blanco shows 668 instead of WTA’s 698 ranking points). As input errors are part of every a data typists game, I wouldn’t care and search for alternatives instead! As you are paying close attention to ranking issues, I strongly recommend you to look at tenismaclari (or vlmark as a back up) and cheek if this professional data base fits for your needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAISAI-GOAT View Post
[…] I think Kim may get a 0 for missing Cincy, not like it matters
As it is impossible for Top 20 players (in 2011 Kim Clijsters finished as # 13) to receive a Mandatory 0 pointer for not competing in P5s, you are misguided!

It’s a pity that you repeat this noise for another time, ignoring not only all those input written in various posts (some on this page) but also this piece:
From WTA’s 2012 Official Rulebook (p 228, bolding is mine):
Quote:
A Top 20 Player must include her two (2) best results from Premier 5 Tournaments if played during the year.
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 11:18 PM   #343
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Vera Zvonareva’s ranking points total as of 8/20/12 will be 2,375 points (2,770 ./. 395 + 0; two best P5 results: two times 0 points for missing her commitments to Rome & Cincinnati) and not 2,281 (updated 8/14/12, 10:28pm), because The Boiled Egg missed to properly implement this easy to read rule for another time:

From WTA 2012 Rulebook (p 228, bolding is mine:
Quote:
A Top 10 Player’s ranking must include her two (2) best results from Premier 5 Tournaments played during the year (which may be zero (0) points, if applicable), plus any other zero (0) points under sub-Sections (b) and (c) above.
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Old Aug 15th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #344
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

when they say "during the year" they mean only calendar year 2012

so if a player skips Doha, then plays Rome and Montreal, Rome and Montreal must count even if they have higher points from 2011 Tokyo

I don't think so because then Vika must count Doha and Rome ... she is not counting Rome but rather counting 2011 Tokyo
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Old Aug 15th, 2012, 12:42 AM   #345
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

I am really confused who must count what now

Fran is a 2011 Top 10 player 2012 Top 20 player
she got a 0 for missing 2011 Tokyo
in 2012 she got 1 from Rome and 1 from Cincy
so as of next week her 2 best P5 are 1 and 1 but she gets to use the 0 as a result

Vera is a 2012 Top 10 player
she got 0 for Rome and Cincy
she got 1 for Doha
so she gets to use the 0 and 0 and does not have to use the 1
what about her 620 from 2011 Tokyo
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